what questions should i ask the broker?

[squadron]

after much searching i have finally found something which may be just be the thing for our 3 year project, its not a sq 58 or p61 but something much older and bigger . i was inspired by bartw,s thread and read it all in one go , and it got me thinking, could i find something for way under my inital budget and still get something which looks good and maybe wont depreciate too much over three years .
amazingly i found a very nice 1994 boat .the broker that i contacted has been very keen and quick to respond (a breath of fresh air to be honest) and has provided some information, but he doesnt have anything like a comprehensive list of servicing and history for the boat.

what i do know is this

1, it has man engines 1100 hp 1300hrs , these engines have had repairs on the turbo,s and injectors last year, 14000euros worth, also an oil change last nov.

2 its lista 6a but only chartered by the owner who purchased it in 2010.

3 spanish registerd but not liable for 4% stamp duty as its owned by a
company.

4 it had a new gennie in 2009 5kw the boat has 2 so i guess the other must be much bigger

5 its vat paid

now i have sort of run out of things to ask , i want to go see it but feel there are many usefull questions that an experienced person would ask , i dont want to seem like i dont know what i am talking about(although i dont).so i am turning to you guys yet again to give me some basic idea as to what i should be asking for before i even book a flight

thanks
david

 

[volvopaul]

Personally I'd keep away from old MAN engines, the parts are a fortune, all the ones ive dealt with suffer from premature failure with pistons disintegrating.

 

[squadron]

Personally I'd keep away from old MAN engines, the parts are a fortune, all the ones ive dealt with suffer from premature failure with pistons disintegrating.

that doesnt sound too good. thanks paul

 

[MRC]

What about a Falcon - approx 86ft from 2000.

Spoke to Someone yesterday who is putting one back together mid refit. Should be cheap if that was any interest I can pass in their details.

I keep thinking a big boat project would be a fun learning experience once work stops getting in the way.

 

[Nick_H]

Squadron, big old boats are cheap for a reason, because they are very expensive to run and maintain. I'm not saying don't do it, just go into with your eyes open. Can you handle the continuous maintenance, and the endless flow of cash required?

My Princess is only 8 years old, and well built, but there are still very few days when something doesn't break or stop working. Usually minor things, a float switch here, an electrical connection there, but they all need fixing.

 

[squadron]

Squadron, big old boats are cheap for a reason, because they are very expensive to run and maintain. I'm not saying don't do it, just go into with your eyes open. Can you handle the continuous maintenance, and the endless flow of cash required?

My Princess is only 8 years old, and well built, but there are still very few days when something doesn't break or stop working. Usually minor things, a float switch here, an electrical connection there, but they all need fixing.

hi nick , i also have a fall back position with a sensible elegance 54 2006 low hours which is also within budget so i am keeping my options open , i think i was really moved by bartw,s thread and it really made me think what if i could do something similar . obviously i dont know if bartsw,s boat is costing him a fourtune to maintain (it would be interesting to find out )but it did look very nice .
by the way i forgot to mention that the boat is a 1994 maiora 20 looks fab and still looks modern ,( on the outside anyway).

thanks
david

 

[squadron]

What about a Falcon - approx 86ft from 2000.

Spoke to Someone yesterday who is putting one back together mid refit. Should be cheap if that was any interest I can pass in their details.

I keep thinking a big boat project would be a fun learning experience once work stops getting in the way.

they look really nice, but 86 ft i thought this 66ft looked huge , too big for me , one for the more experienced i think.

thanks anyway
david

 

[BartW]

Here my two pence;
At that time I made a list of all the features that were important to us,
to compare different models.
Then when you have a offer accepted, make sure that you have a good surveyor (or two)
I can advice you a good one for Ital boats if needed. (he’s in Italy)

Re MAN engines,
Actually I’m VERY pleased with these, because they are traditional and simple mechanical injected engine block’s, many engineers know the D2842LE402 and can work on them,
This main block is in use sinds many years, and my surveyor, a local Belgium engine rebuilding company (all brands), advised that it was a reliable model, despite the high running hours, then 2250hrs, now 2490hrs.
Replacing oil and filters, I can do myself, and buying parts directly from MAN Belgium, prices are ok (can give you example prices if you like)
Also had copies of invoices from maintenance/ injector replacement from previous owner, and these prices were not outrageous

Re. Maintenance cost
Its true that big boats need a lot of maintenance on all the different systems, but I believe this is also the case on newer boats, If you’re not handy yourselves, don’t buy a big boat, unless brand new with dealer warranty, and even then, ….
There will always’s be a switch, or a connection, or a battery, or a hose, or a filter, or a pump, or a hinge, or a lock, or something that needs mending,…
But the advantage here with older boats, is that all system are build quite simple, no fancy electronics, no complexity, (at least on my C70) and I can do it all by myself, or by friends I invite on board ;-)
All important systems on a superyacht are doubled, or have a backup,

One thing to keep in mind when owning a big boat is that all suppliers think you are super rich, and act accordingly, so be careful when selecting suppliers / maintenance workers…

Another thing to consider is that a big boat is not easy to move, and you have to find workers in the area where she is.
f.e. at the moment one airco compressor needs to top up the gas, so I need to find a guy locally who can do that for me without charging a arm and a leg. (it would be expesive to drive a local Belgium guy down just for that), but luckily this is not urgent as there are two compressors.

We have done some major upgrades (re Blue Angel rebuild thread) but further then that we have not had unexpected maintenance costs,
but remember it’s a big boat, so some basic costs will always’s be big.
f.e. for a lift in out and antifoul you have to budget 5000 euro, ….
also the mooring cost in SOF is huge.
So the total running cost of 70ft boat is very high, and you have to make up your mind if you can and want to spend that kind of money

I’ve been now 5 weeks almost permanently on the boat in SOF, and I can honestly say that I’m extremely happy with the choice we made. Living on this boat is absolutely fantastic.
On average we were with 10 ppl on the boat permanently, and nobody complained about a lack of space…
For no money I would swap this boat for a newer smaller model !!!

I know this sounds geeky, but I’m totally in love with this boat. Almost daily we have people on the pontoon admiring and confirming they like here. Don’t we all like that ;-)

The biggest concern would be if I want to sell the boat, because as you notice yourselves, there are so many big old boats on the market, and almost no buyers, (the super-rich buy new or younger boats). So therefor it’s extremely important that you make the right choice right away.
I’m always looking around to other boats, models, makes, and have not yet found any other boat that I would have liked I had chosen instead of Blue Angel,
and I consider myself very lucky with that.

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

What to ask for? Everything!

As a start:-

but he doesnt have anything like a comprehensive list of servicing and history for the boat.

That would do nicely.

Of course the Broker won't have that info, but he can get it from the Vendor. Or could even be that the Vendor doesn't have it (both for during his ownership and before) - which also tells you something.

When it comes to the boat condition (stuff being fooked, tired or simply on last legs), then in an ideal world the Vendor would either be genuinely ignorant, lazy or hiding things - being less than an ideal world it will be a combination of all 3..........you get to discover some of how much of each during the buying process. But you only get to discover the complete answer after buying, and some of that only 6 months or a year (or so!) later

My first note of caution is the Owner bought in 2010, spent EUR14k on the engines the next year and is now selling. Doesn't mean that he has discovered that the boat (and especially the engines) is a money pit - but the reason he is selling could be before something else(s!) starts eating money........and at the moment he has his fingers crossed that nothing gets expensive before the new owner arrives.

.....but it's an old boat - they all do that

What you are buying is the nautical equivalent of a 1970 Rolls Royce, for new Ford Focus money.....nothing wrong with that if you buy a good one, but buy a bad one and you'll spend more than a new Roller costs (well, maybe an exageration. maybe! - but you get my point). and end up with a very nice 1970 Rolls Royce, an empty bank account. and car worth the same as a new Ford Focus ......but you have to accept that at the end of the day you will have to take a punt (no one has x-ray vision or a crystal ball).

But on a practical note I would also ask for the surveys the Vendor got for his purchase, both hull and mechanicals.....and any he got from the previous owner(s). If you can contact them a fair chance of getting some valuable (and unvarnished) information.

A surveyor (experianced with that size of boat) should be able to give you a good handle on both the current condition and areas (and ballpark costs) that will require attention or at least to be aware of (get references, and follow them up!). Personally I would identify a Surveyor early doors, and given the likely sums involved (especially if you buy badly) I would not scrimp on one, by that I mean I would seriously consider putting one on a retainer so you could ask him all the "dumb" questions you like to educate yourself before buying with the intention of also sticking him on a plane to whereever this boat (or others) is located. The costs of that will add up, but compared to getting the purchase wrong that money will seem like small beer......but my focus would be on the mechanicals, both the engines and all other systems and for that might need a specialist (or 3 - depending on what is onboard).....but your Surveyor should be able to guide you on that.

To frighten your bank manager witless Google up some ballpark replacement costs for various items, then put finger in the air for a figure on installation costs.

Not saying don't - but eyes wide open. and fingers crossed. and personally I would not bet the farm on getting a good 'un. There be reasons why old and big boats are "cheap" - same reasons why a 1970 Rolls Royce is.

FWIW, I am at 30' with a mast but built in 1970 .....but been around boats since (just!) before PBO was launched! (albeit back then I was not far past diapers )

 

[squadron]

just a few pics of her

thought i would just let you see what a beautie she is . bartw thanks for the responce (i was going to pm you and ask how it was going ) but all sounds well and i am pleased for you ,if you take a look at the engine shot i dont know if you recognise this engine but i suspect it may be the same one as yours , stilll awaiting info on that.

bartw , yes please i would love you to forward deatail of the italian boat experts they may come in usefull.

anyway have asked for more detials and will wait and see what comes back .




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[Deleted User YDKXO]

My Princess is only 8 years old, and well built, but there are still very few days when something doesn't break or stop working. Usually minor things, a float switch here, an electrical connection there, but they all need fixing.

Just what I was going to say. Mine is 9yrs old and I've been on the boat for the last 6 days and something different has gone wrong every day so far. Nothing to spoil our fun too much but very irritating when you've got limited time on your boat. With older boats, IMHO affording the maintenance is the least of your problems, it's the time you have to spend finding somebody competent to fix your problems at reasonable cost, waiting for spares and hoping the problems you experience don't impact your cruising plans too much. Older larger boats are very tempting and I've trawled Yachtworld myself dreaming about 80 footers but as you say, the reality rarely lives up to the dream unless you're very DIY handy and have lots of spare time.
Excellent article in MBY this month btw. How does your hinging storage bin work?

 

[Nick_H]

How does your hinging storage bin work?

You can see on the photo below it. You remove the junk, fold the sides inwards, then the whole thing hinges up. It's a bit Heath Robinson at the mo', but it does the job for now, and I'll try and improve it over the winter.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

WoW super choice, on the FIPA 20 Maiora. A timeless classic indeed.

She was designed by Roberto del Re in 1991, hull one launched in 92 (think it was powered by twin 1080hp GM) and is still with minor changes in production. You can actually say the Maiora 20 invented the 68 feet class.

Good luck in this deal. This one of my all time favorites flybridge motor yachts.

Every boat have there maintenance problems but I do actually think that the problem are more associatated with lack of maintenance and checking. I have a 13 years old 10 meter sports cruisers, and a friend of myn has a 2 years old 38 Targa. I think the problems are more or less the same with the difference that for his electronic Volvos he needs the mechanic all the time, while I can fix most of the small problems my self on the KAD43s.
Last year in Syracuse I was speaking with the crew of seven year old Carnevali 160 Fly, and a Rizzardi 45 Incredible and we actually came to agree that the boats actually fool you in Winter when they are not used and things get stall, and this is where the trick lies for a trouble free Summer.

Most of the famous Viareggio brands in my books, are always over well built and have high quality systems to them. Obviously even for a one year old boat things need checking, more so one of ten years plus. FIPA is one of the high regarded Viareggio brands.
High attention in a boat this size needs to be on the engines and generators, as problems here cost a fortune.

I would suggest to you to use the same surveyor I suggested to Bart where he has high knowledge of all brands, but most of all is specialized on these Italian ladies.

 

[squadron]

Just what I was going to say. Mine is 9yrs old and I've been on the boat for the last 6 days and something different has gone wrong every day so far. Nothing to spoil our fun too much but very irritating when you've got limited time on your boat. With older boats, IMHO affording the maintenance is the least of your problems, it's the time you have to spend finding somebody competent to fix your problems at reasonable cost, waiting for spares and hoping the problems you experience don't impact your cruising plans too much. Older larger boats are very tempting and I've trawled Yachtworld myself dreaming about 80 footers but as you say, the reality rarely lives up to the dream unless you're very DIY handy and have lots of spare time.
Excellent article in MBY this month btw. How does your hinging storage bin work?

hi mike ,hope you are well and enjoying croatia , i looked at the temperature in the med , its hotter than here in taiwan at the moment , i hope your aircon is working ok. sorry to hear you are having daily problems ,its funny because mike in mallorca was just praising ferrettis and talking about you and yours and how good they were. i think i am looking to these older boats because of the space they provide for me and the family to live on board in comfort for 5-6 months ,and also they appear to be really good value (i know its a false impression )as you say its the maintainance that you have to worry about . i just dont know why an old boat needs more than a newish one ? wouldnt a very expensive boat have been maintained at any cost by its rich owners for at least the first 10-15 years ? .

david

 

[squadron]

WoW super choice, on the FIPA 20 Maiora. A timeless classic indeed.

She was designed by Roberto del Re in 1991, hull one launched in 92 (think it was powered by twin 1080hp GM) and is still with minor changes in production. You can actually say the Maiora 20 invented the 68 feet class.

Good luck in this deal. This one of my all time favorites flybridge motor yachts.

Every boat have there maintenance problems but I do actually think that the problem are more associatated with lack of maintenance and checking. I have a 13 years old 10 meter sports cruisers, and a friend of myn has a 2 years old 38 Targa. I think the problems are more or less the same with the difference that for his electronic Volvos he needs the mechanic all the time, while I can fix most of the small problems my self on the KAD43s.
Last year in Syracuse I was speaking with the crew of seven year old Carnevali 160 Fly, and a Rizzardi 45 Incredible and we actually came to agree that the boats actually fool you in Winter when they are not used and things get stall, and this is where the trick lies for a trouble free Summer.

Most of the famous Viareggio brands in my books, are always over well built and have high quality systems to them. Obviously even for a one year old boat things need checking, more so one of ten years plus. FIPA is one of the high regarded Viareggio brands.
High attention in a boat this size needs to be on the engines and generators, as problems here cost a fortune.

I would suggest to you to use the same surveyor I suggested to Bart where he has high knowledge of all brands, but most of all is specialized on these Italian ladies.

i love its style , looks like a million dollars on the outside ... but looks like a million switches on the inside , so many switches in front of the helm , it just seems so well built , i have some nice interior shots , all the carpentry looks really solid ,like it would last 100 years , as for the engines yes bart has offered to send the info to me which i will take him up on .

thanks
david

 

[Tranona]

wouldnt a very expensive boat have been maintained at any cost by its rich owners for at least the first 10-15 years ? .

david

One would like to think so - but these toys are often "trophies" - external signs of financial and social success. Many people who buy this type of thing (not just boats) get bored very quickly and often have no idea what is involved in running them. They are then prey to all sorts of people who think they know how to look after the boat, but are really only expert at emptying wallets. Owners can then lose interest or have financial difficulties and the boat gets neglected.

The next person who wants to make a statement is not interested in old boats, so the value drops, it gets used less, maintained less well and so on. If you accept that the running costs are going to be much the same as a new boat 4 or 5 times the price and have the knowledge and ability to manage running the boat yourself then you can get into it for very little money, but you also need to be aware that you will get very little money at the end (if any). You do, though have to recognise as Deleted User says that you will need to spend a significant amount of your time fixing things, or trying to get others to fix them rather than relaxing and enjoying life.

 

[kcrane]

When you buy a boat, especially an older one, there is the (big) risk that the boat hasn't been sufficiently maintained, so there will be more things that need fixing than there normally would.

But once you have an older boat fixed and up and running I wonder if there are that many more things going wrong on a regular basis than there would be on a 8-10 year old boat? On the older one you have had more wear and tear of course, but maybe the systems are a bit simpler, so they're easier to fix?

I think of my 48ft boat (a 2007 Princess) as being reliable and low maintenance. Then on reading this it dawned we're busy swapping out the TV cos it is analogue, the large fabric 'hard top' is grubby and needs attention, there is a steady small leak from the trim tabs that will need a lift to fix, the fridge compressor is getting quite noisy etc etc.

Darn, it isn't only 20+ yr old boats and 8-10 yr old boats, it is 5 year old boats as well that need a lot of TLC.

Maybe older need not be that much worse when balanced against the smaller initial outlay so long as you go in with your eyes open?

 

[Nick_H]

It seems to me that after 10 years you still get the mechanical and corrosion type failures, but you also start to get degradation failures - teak, hoses, silcone, window seals, fabrics etc. You also get availability problems with parts, so may have to change whole systems instead.

Also in the context of this discussion, the OP isn't just talking older but also bigger, so intrinsically there's more to go wrong and it takes longer to fix, because there's more of everything by volume/quantity.

 

[squadron]

When you buy a boat, especially an older one, there is the (big) risk that the boat hasn't been sufficiently maintained, so there will be more things that need fixing than there normally would.

But once you have an older boat fixed and up and running I wonder if there are that many more things going wrong on a regular basis than there would be on a 8-10 year old boat? On the older one you have had more wear and tear of course, but maybe the systems are a bit simpler, so they're easier to fix?

I think of my 48ft boat (a 2007 Princess) as being reliable and low maintenance. Then on reading this it dawned we're busy swapping out the TV cos it is analogue, the large fabric 'hard top' is grubby and needs attention, there is a steady small leak from the trim tabs that will need a lift to fix, the fridge compressor is getting quite noisy etc etc.

Darn, it isn't only 20+ yr old boats and 8-10 yr old boats, it is 5 year old boats as well that need a lot of TLC.

Maybe older need not be that much worse when balanced against the smaller initial outlay so long as you go in with your eyes open?

hi kevin , hope you are well, my thoughts exactly , its really strange the other boat i am looking at is much younger 2006 only 200 hours , i have just found out its had complete new running gear , props prepellers , engine computers , 50,000 euros worth , makes you think , also on the old boat the interior quality of build and materials look really solid (old fashioned i agree ) but built very strong , if the engines are good and the other systems are well maintained then should be just the same running costs approx .
the other thing is when and if i get to survey the old boat i am sure that the price will come down even further , when it comes to re-sale i dont know , but if you buy right then there will always be people looking , not many i agree, but its the same for newish boats .

anyway nice to hear from you.

david

 

[squadron]

It seems to me that after 10 years you still get the mechanical and corrosion type failures, but you also start to get degradation failures - teak, hoses, silcone, window seals, fabrics etc. You also get availability problems with parts, so may have to change whole systems instead.

Also in the context of this discussion, the OP isn't just talking older but also bigger, so intrinsically there's more to go wrong and it takes longer to fix, because there's more of everything by volume/quantity.

hi nick , what i hope is that all those old broken systems have been replaced by now (wont know that untill i see it) but i do know its had new navionics in 2010, and a new gennie in 2009, maybe all the important stuff has already been upgraded , if so then the cost are just everyday repairs much like on any other 50-60 ft boat . its interesting that bart says he has had no problems (i know its only a few weeks and time will tell) but it looks like he has a good one and there must be others like that , its just everyone likes new, its just natural .and the old stuff gets overlooked ,even if they are really well maintained . interestingly barts c70 has twice the hours that the maiora has on it and still no problems . the truth of it nick is that the the boats i really wanted sq58 p61 which seem to offer the space i need are still really expensive and i cant get the pricing down to the level i need , origionally my budget was much higher but having learnt so much from people on this forum i now understand what financial committment would be required , so to be sensible i have to either look at smaller boats which may or may not be suitable, or older larger boats which are fit for the purpose . this a three year project for us and we have to live aboard 5-6 months a year ,and we want to travell the whole of the med,not just go round and round mallorca, not sure its possible in a 52 footer so i must explore all options , some of the old stuff still looks really nice (maybe because i am old too haha)

thanks
david