What procedures do you follow with lifejackets when you have a crew?

I sail with my children so SWMBO and I adhere to the same rules as them - i.e. always on and clipped on unless in harbour / river.

Sailing with the lads - LJ on underway, clip on if leaving the cockpit and windspeed in double figures( ish) LJ always on in Dinghy - thinking of getting some buoyancy aids for the dinghy - children use their kayaking ones in the dinghy and our proper 150N with light and sprayhood are a little OTT for a quick trip on the Hamble!
 
Based on arguments made on here that the probability of an incident is low that life rafts are not logically required, then extrapolating that idea to all sailing risks, why bother with any safety kit.

Lets face it, I would bet that it is statistically significant, in fact as probable as it can be, that we will not experience an event in our sailing experiences that requires a lifejacket to be used.
 
I can see the point of not wearing one in warm seas and light winds but, while not wearing one in less than benign conditions may be fine in the cockpit, you never know when something's going to require attention in a hurry at the mast, and that's when you risk becoming a statistic. Even in light winds, in the Solent, a passing mobo several hundred yards away can set a boat rocking and rolling enough to throw a person who doesn't see the wake coming off balance. Being clipped on is more important than wearing an LJ, but I would suggest that most people's harness is part of their LJ.

In my view, unless conditions are such that swimwear and sunscreen is all you need to wear, an LJ with harness and lifeline isn't hard to wear and it might just save your life. Arguments to the contrary remind me of those trotted out against seat belts and crash helmets years ago. Yes, there are times when they're an inconvenience, and even times when they'll do more harm than good, but statistically, you're far more likely to have an incident where they'll help keep you alive than one where they'll do harm
 
Stemar said:
I can see the point of not wearing one in warm seas and light winds but, while not wearing one in less than benign conditions may be fine in the cockpit, you never know when something's going to require attention in a hurry at the mast, and that's when you risk becoming a statistic. Even in light winds, in the Solent, a passing mobo several hundred yards away can set a boat rocking and rolling enough to throw a person who doesn't see the wake coming off balance. Being clipped on is more important than wearing an LJ, but I would suggest that most people's harness is part of their LJ.

In my view, unless conditions are such that swimwear and sunscreen is all you need to wear, an LJ with harness and lifeline isn't hard to wear and it might just save your life. Arguments to the contrary remind me of those trotted out against seat belts and crash helmets years ago. Yes, there are times when they're an inconvenience, and even times when they'll do more harm than good, but statistically, you're far more likely to have an incident where they'll help keep you alive than one where they'll do harm
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You can tell people to wear an LJ or to clip on, but it's a lot harder to teach them to move around the boat safely so they minimise risk. And harder still to train them to increase their awareness of likely events.
I notice when sailing with people who been on boats all their lives, they have a greater awareness of how the boat is moving, they sit or stand so they react naturally to the boat's movement. They are aware of other boats so see the wash coming etc. They will naturally locate themselves in the boat so they are secure without holding on, but probably where there's something to hold if needed. They will almost always have a free hand for themselves.
There is a lot more to safety than rigid rules about wearing LJs or harnesses.
I tend to encourage landlubbers to wear LJs aboard.
Myself, I have sort of adopted the 'when you need an oily jacket' guidance from racing. I have no qualms about not wearing one in most conditions, equally I often put one on because I'm taking it to the boat so I might as well be wearing it.
I wear BAs all the time in racing dinghies, canoes (unless we are talking about swimming with one on the beach), generally in tenders.
 
lw395 said:
You can tell people to wear an LJ or to clip on, but it's a lot harder to teach them to move around the boat safely so they minimise risk. And harder still to train them to increase their awareness of likely events.
I notice when sailing with people who been on boats all their lives, they have a greater awareness of how the boat is moving, they sit or stand so they react naturally to the boat's movement.
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Living on board for much of the year and using the tender daily (sometimes 2 or 3 times) we are more aware of risks than we were when weekend sailors bashing around the Irish Sea in a 26ft boat.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Based on arguments made on here that the probability of an incident is low that life rafts are not logically required, then extrapolating that idea to all sailing risks, why bother with any safety kit.

Lets face it, I would bet that it is statistically significant, in fact as probable as it can be, that we will not experience an event in our sailing experiences that requires a lifejacket to be used.
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Much safety equipment is for psychological reasons only and expense on it may be instead of emergency prevention spend which is much more likely to save you. We all make our own judgements and whilst some can afford or have the skills to maintain perfect engine and fuel, a wardrobe of sails for every situation, new running and fixed gear all the time, full AIS and still buy EPIRB, life-raft and so on, most people make choices.

I still differentiate strongly between safety measures (which to me is things like engine maintenance and training which minimises the likelihood of a problem) and emergency kit (which helps solve an emergency once it's happened).

I have a lot of time for the first and pay lip service to the second, with the exception of harnesses which I do wear in limited circumstances underway. Using them all the time underway would feel to me (and statistically probably be as silly) as wearing a dry suit every time I went to sunbathe on a beach in case I decided to go for a paddle and slipped.
 
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It is a matter of risk assessment and over the past few years, for a variety of reasons, I haven't spent enough time at sea to keep the sharp edge on my awareness, so I tend to err on the side of caution.

I should also mention that included in my risk assessment is the risk of earache if the Admiral sees me leaving the cockpit in any but the most benign of conditions without being clipped on...
 
Stemar said:
It is a matter of risk assessment and over the past few years, for a variety of reasons, I haven't spent enough time at sea to keep the sharp edge on my awareness, so I tend to err on the side of caution.

I should also mention that included in my risk assessment is the risk of earache if the Admiral sees me leaving the cockpit in any but the most benign of conditions without being clipped on...
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Oh I recognise that and she is right - even snuffing the aysm in a Force 3 could lift me off the deck even though everything looks very calm indeed.
 
Hi all

I have a Stormy Jacket https://www.stormylifejackets.com.au/product/stormy-life-jacket-with-harness-150n/ with integrated harness and crotch straps which i wear pretty much all of the time when on deck on the boat

Here in Tasmania the temperature is normally fairly cool and i would be wearing a jacket most of the time so this does the job of both

The sleeves also zip off for when it is warm

I think if i had a yoke i probably wouldn't wear it as often

At an information night a person from Mast Tasmania who are the government department that look after all things boating in Tassie said that most of the fatalities they have are in good weather and close to home where people don't bother to wear a PFD

They fall in the water and with the cold water temperatures down here they don't have a lot of time before they are not able to get themselves back into the boat

In bad weather most people will be wearing a PFD and if they end up in the water they have a better chance of survival

Regards Don
 
My briefing to the crew:

If you want to
When you're asked to
At night
Usually when reefed
Poor viz
If the kite's up and it's looking even a little bit exciting
If you're a child- nearly always (perhaps not if sat in the cockpit moored up under very close supervision eating dinner)

Tender...depends really. If we're likely to be coming back pissed at night...yes. If it's a millpond during the day...no.

There just cannot be simple hard and fast, black and white rules IMHO. If you're sailing with a bunch of guys/girls you know know well and sail with regularly, this will be a different case to sailing with unknowns or "passengers". As with any aspect of sailing it's about assessing the conditions and situation, now, what could happen, and making a judgement call. The above is my guideline, and what might be a "no" decision in the Solent five up, may be a "yes" mid channel 2 up in identical conditions. Even the child thing...right now my lad (2 1/2) loves wearing his lifejacket...even at home in rural Warwickshire. At some point he's going to twig he's wearing one, I'm not, and we may need a rethink.

I'm afraid I just wholeheartedly disagree with the over cautious "always always wear one", "never ever drink alcohol", "always have a reef in, you never know" brigade as it just seems that these people cannot assess the situation and make IMHO an educated decision. But I also respect their rule if it's their boat...I would just not want to sail with them.

My only hard and fast always always always zero excuse rule is on killcords.
 
Iain C said:
I'm afraid I just wholeheartedly disagree with the over cautious "always always wear one", "never ever drink alcohol", "always have a reef in, you never know" brigade as it just seems that these people cannot assess the situation and make IMHO an educated decision. But I also respect their rule if it's their boat...I would just not want to sail with them.

My only hard and fast always always always zero excuse rule is on killcords.
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Well, in many cases and certainly in ours, our safety harnesses are incorporated in our lifejackets. So we wear lifejackets so that we have our safety harnesses on. Further, I am not omniscient so I can't tell when an unexpected event will happen - which could be anything from an unexpected wave to a whale jumping on the boat (yes, it has happened!). If I was absolutely certain that nothing unexpected would happen, I wouldn't bother clipping on either. But the unexpected DOES happen, most trips more often than not. I started wearing a lifejacket all the time because of the possibility that I could unexpectedly lose consciousness (my crew thought I'd had an epileptic fit; later examinations showed I hadn't); I continue to do so because it isn't inconvenient and hasn't got a down-side that I can see.
I really don't understand the objection to wearing them. If they were still like the BoT kapok things I wore as a child, then I could see the problem - they were heavy, bulky and hot. But you can barely tell you're wearing a modern lifejacket, and they cover less skin than a singlet or even a set of bathing trunks!
 
AntarcticPilot said:
Well, in many cases and certainly in ours, our safety harnesses are incorporated in our lifejackets. So we wear lifejackets so that we have our safety harnesses on. Further, I am not omniscient so I can't tell when an unexpected event will happen - which could be anything from an unexpected wave to a whale jumping on the boat (yes, it has happened!). If I was absolutely certain that nothing unexpected would happen, I wouldn't bother clipping on either. But the unexpected DOES happen, most trips more often than not. I started wearing a lifejacket all the time because of the possibility that I could unexpectedly lose consciousness (my crew thought I'd had an epileptic fit; later examinations showed I hadn't); I continue to do so because it isn't inconvenient and hasn't got a down-side that I can see.
I really don't understand the objection to wearing them. If they were still like the BoT kapok things I wore as a child, then I could see the problem - they were heavy, bulky and hot. But you can barely tell you're wearing a modern lifejacket, and they cover less skin than a singlet or even a set of bathing trunks!
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I don't have an objection to wearing them, I just don't think you have to wear them all the time. I also completely respect your opinion on wearing one in your case on medical grounds, it's obviously the very sensible thing to do, and I'd probably do the same.

I'd argue the case as follows. During a rough passage, we'd all wear LJ's and clip on, right? And then as we got into the lee of the land, the mouth of the river or whatever, we'd probably ditch the harness line. We'd have a look round and go "on balance I'm now fairly unlikely to fall in, I don't really need this any more". I don't see people putting out lines and fenders still clipped on, they've made an educated assesment of the conditions and decided against using it. So what's different with LJs?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against wearing one at all. I have a Spinlock and it's a great bit of kit. The other day on passage I started off in full foulies, LJ, double reefed, hooked on with several other lines in strategic places around the boat, and by the end of it was sunbathing of the foredeck in my shorts with a mirror smooth sea and the engine and pilot on (with crew). I'll probably wear my LJ more often than I don't, I just reserve the right to sometimes not wear one if the conditions permit.

Even the RYA are sensible enough to not have some arbitary "always wear a lifejacket" point of view, although they also say "always always always use a killcord". Common sense IMHO.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-ad...yourself/Pages/buoyancy-aids-lifejackets.aspx

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/Pages/kill-cord.aspx
 
We would probably all agree that a climbing rope and harness make sense for climbing. But when?

1. Stepping over a carpet edge.
2. Climbing stairs.
3. Stepping into the bath tub. People regularly fall and die doing this.
4. Climbing a step ladder. Lots of injuries and some deaths.
5. Climbing on boulders within 3 feet of the ground over level ground.
6, High-ball bouldering over a bad landing, 6 feet up.
7. " " " 10 feet up.
8. Climbing easy rock 50 feet up.
9. Difficult rock 100 feet up.
10. An ordinary 500-foot staircase, with no railings and covered with glare ice, with a gale force breeze (many mountains are like that).

I could go on, but the truth is each of us would have his own ideas on these examples, and the need for a rope will also depend on skill. One person might need help into the shower, while another might be comfortable with and safe in all of the examples.

Comparisons to cars are IMO false. The reasons should be entirely obvious and don't bear discussion.

And if we look at some of the resent southern ocean examples (Clipper and Vovlo), sometimes you just have to know when not to fall. That last sounds corny, but it is not intended that way. An experienced sailor or climber may appear cavalier, but in fact is far more attentive to his situation than others, though it may not appear so.
 
Heres what I do. Might not suit everybody but well...

First off, its the first subject I deal with on a safety brief. coz its personal, especially for peoples early trips.

I'll get them all to get a jacket and tether each plus one for me from the stowage. Then everyone knows where the spares are too.

Up to the cockpit, we all put them on and adjust to size. With the new weeks crew this is also a bit of an icebreaker, some might be a bit nervous and fingers and thumbs.

Then I open mine up and show them all the fittings. generally this is on commercial boats so they have auto inflate. Two second job to unscrew the working bit to show them and also the cylinder seal is intact. Point out rusty doenst really affect the cylinder strength but can rub jacket material.

Oral inflation tube, light, reflective tape. often mention that you might not ignore this next time on a flight.

Next, tether points, jackstays. Gettem to clip on and walk round deck.

Last bit is when to wear. The RYA mindset here for me works . On unless its safe to take them off. Think also kids, non swimmers and first timers, at least for the first few sessions. As previously mentioned, a lot of time it is quite safe without them so knowing when to put them back on is important.

My brief is this. If its gonna be a PITA to get you out if you fell in, prevent that on bumpy seas by wearing one and clipping on. If you fall in and we arent ever gonna see you, put one on and clip on. So thats night, bad viz and heavy rain.

It always gives your crew a confidence boost when they see you know what you are talking about and have got their safety in mind all the time.

One last thing, if I got a prep week for exams, I swap an old cylinder into a jacket and get one of the crew wearing one and set it off pulling the toggle.

Happy sailing! :encouragement:
 
Always worn when sailing if out of the cockpit, in the tender, at night, when reefed
Strong recommendation to wear at all other times when sailing

In practice people follow my lead and wear one all the time.

Of these situations I think the tender is the most dangerous. I have a offshore workers waterproof jacket with integrated life jacket which negates the need to carry it around town, unless in Salcombe where carrying/wearing a life jacket is de rigour I am told (even if you do not have a boat)
 
I recently went through a number of sailing magazines (PBY, YM, Sail, etc.) and counted sailors underway, with and without PFDs or tethers. Those with is a rather small number, typically way less than 20%, and typically nil if we exclude dinghies and really foul weather racing or cruising. In fair weather, scarcer than hen's teeth.

Just sayin', not judging.
 
Those who say they wear them all the time when underway or in the tender presumably don’t holiday or live aboard their boat much. The downside is the difference between sailing along in a pair of shorts and wearing a harness over back and chest and crotch.

The comparisons is not with climbing or cars I think but with what you wear in your own home where you could fall down stairs, electrocute yourself, scald yourself, have a ceiling collapse on your head and all the other things that happen far more often than falling overboard a moving yacht.

You could wear protective gear at home but after a few months then few would, and I doubt many (apart from a few week end and cold climate sailors ) stick with the obsessive wearing of their totem garment at all times.
 
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