Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
Maxi 1100?
What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?
- Thread starter bedouin
- Start date
dk
Well-Known Member
Was about to mention the Maxis. 1100 or 1300. Very nice yachts and pretty quick too.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Had another thought on this...
Don't be tempted by the Elan 410. I've done quite a bit of sailing on them and whilst they are great boats, but they are just way too much boat for cruising with a young family. The loads get scary high. It's a boat that can hang with the big dogs upwind in fully crewed mode, but doesn't seem to have the docile side in cruising mode that some other CRs do, shorthanded deliveries on that boat were hard work.
I've seen a couple of GS 39s for sale recently, and that's a great boat.
I'm still sticking with my Dufour 40 recommendation though...
Don't be tempted by the Elan 410. I've done quite a bit of sailing on them and whilst they are great boats, but they are just way too much boat for cruising with a young family. The loads get scary high. It's a boat that can hang with the big dogs upwind in fully crewed mode, but doesn't seem to have the docile side in cruising mode that some other CRs do, shorthanded deliveries on that boat were hard work.
I've seen a couple of GS 39s for sale recently, and that's a great boat.
I'm still sticking with my Dufour 40 recommendation though...
bedouin
Well-Known Member
The Dufour does look like a serious contender.
One oddity is that they seem only to have one pair of winches in the cockpit and I would have expected two pairs on a performance boat - but at least they are well positioned to allow the helm to trim the Genoa.
One oddity is that they seem only to have one pair of winches in the cockpit and I would have expected two pairs on a performance boat - but at least they are well positioned to allow the helm to trim the Genoa.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Why would you expect 2 pairs? Unless you're trimming the main with winches you only need one.
The winches aft was something that I was initially sceptical about, but in fact came to love as it meant I could tweak away to my heart's content without disturbing the family who's notions of sailing were either to sleep or read books....
bedouin
Well-Known Member
The winch position I love - for short handed sailing it is important that the helm can adjust all sheets from the helm position and so many boats have the primaries 6 feet away - often having to negotiate an over-sized wheel in the process. The downside is that the trimmer will normally be forward of the wheel so will tend to be operating the winch facing the wrong way
I am used to two pairs of winches in the cockpit - typically the primaries for the genoa sheets and spinnaker guys and the secondaries for the spinnaker sheets. The GS for example has a pair of primaries forward in the cockpit and the secondaries close to the helm position that could be used for Genoa sheets when sailing short handed.
flaming
Well-Known Member
The aft winches on the GS are for the main sheet, what is known as the German system. You can just about make it out in this picture.
It's been standard for as long as I've been sailing to lead the spinnaker sheets to the halyard winches. I haven't come across a boat with separate spinnaker winches aft for years.
doris
Well-Known Member
Agree with that. Certainly both very high performance and comfy
doris
Well-Known Member
The 400 and 41 are VERY different boats.
Both getting a tad long in the tooth now.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Ah - I'm clearly an old fashioned sort of guy - my halyard winches are on the mast
flaming
Well-Known Member
Ah - I'm clearly an old fashioned sort of guy - my halyard winches are on the mast
Definitely time for an upgrade then!
glynd
Well-Known Member
Bit of thread drift...
I really can't get the hang on the German system - It drives me nuts.
Putting a gybe in with that setup is an exercise in winch dancing, especially as the main sheet slack is generally on the wrong side.
Reefing also tends to be some what slower - I'd definitely not expect to use the German system when racing...?
Am I missing something?!
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Have you sailed with a well set up German mainsheet system? Ours is great. Mainsheet is right next to helm so easy to handle singlehanded.
Do need to winch in a bit of rope for windy gybe but no issue. And can’t see any reason why would make any difference reefing or unreefing (just for sport I timed my last efforts, reefing 3 minutes in total including rope tidy up, with sail not filling for under 60 seconds, unreefing took a couple of minutes longer to pull out reef lines as was doing solo).
flaming
Well-Known Member
Don't understand why reefing would be slower? You just ease sheet, reef, then winch it back in surely? Why is that slower?
Most crews racing with it tend to splice the sheet into a continuous line, so no need to worry about having all the rope on one side or not. And they then use the mast man to "bounce the As" to bring it in quickly - so pulling hard at the part of the sheet running from the gooseneck to the block on the side deck whilst the trimmer tails. Either through a gybe (if not just chucking the boom over) or at the bottom mark.
What I would do gybing in cruising mode would just be to do the work on one winch, so winch in and then take the sheet out of the self tailer, gybe the boat and ease on the same winch. There's no real need to ease the windward sheet. In fact, once you've spliced the rope to be continuous a lot of trimmers (when they want continuous sheet adjustment - on a reach for example) will have the leeward sheet out of the self tailer, and will be easing that and grinding the windward winch when they want to trim on. One hand to ease, one to trim on basically.
Or they just detail one of the "lesser" crew to grind for them...
Most crews racing with it tend to splice the sheet into a continuous line, so no need to worry about having all the rope on one side or not. And they then use the mast man to "bounce the As" to bring it in quickly - so pulling hard at the part of the sheet running from the gooseneck to the block on the side deck whilst the trimmer tails. Either through a gybe (if not just chucking the boom over) or at the bottom mark.
What I would do gybing in cruising mode would just be to do the work on one winch, so winch in and then take the sheet out of the self tailer, gybe the boat and ease on the same winch. There's no real need to ease the windward sheet. In fact, once you've spliced the rope to be continuous a lot of trimmers (when they want continuous sheet adjustment - on a reach for example) will have the leeward sheet out of the self tailer, and will be easing that and grinding the windward winch when they want to trim on. One hand to ease, one to trim on basically.
Or they just detail one of the "lesser" crew to grind for them...
glynd
Well-Known Member
Only really experienced the system in sunny places on chartered Jeanneau's - the rest of the crew sail a week a year.
Having the main sheet / reefing lines / halyards all in the same place make it very quick for one person to put a reef in/out whilst continuing on headsail...
A spliced continuous loop sounds interesting, and I can see how that would alleviate things a lot - not generally possible on a charter boat though.
I generally sail on boats without a shortage of crew or winches, so the system just feels alien and deficient!
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
Look the traditional cruiser-racer was something like a Starlight 39, a fast solid boat that does not slam. However these are to old and the last ones were built in about 1998. So some people have suggested a Dufour 40, which is a nice boat, but will slam in a sea way. I would avoid Arconas are whilst they are often fitted out as cruiser/racers they are usually very deep drafted. My choice would be a Sweden 41 or 45 or an XC. You might also consider a Southerly or Allures if your budget can run to it, both of these boats can turn a really good speed particularly downwind with the keel up.
Sigma's too old
Avoid the French boats (Too light will slam)
HR, Malo & Najad too heavy. Malo are very nice though.
Sigma's too old
Avoid the French boats (Too light will slam)
HR, Malo & Najad too heavy. Malo are very nice though.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
I’d be very frustrated without a pair of winches either side and miss a more racing oriented boat with more.
For example I want to reef and have one winch for Genoa halyard leaving me just one winch for mainsheet, main halyard and the reefing line on that side. The other side in that scenario starts with a pair of unused winches and may have the vang on one briefly.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Not my experience... Done many thousands of miles in one, really miss that boat.
The 40 actually had a pretty fine entry, which limits slamming.
flaming
Well-Known Member
I think we must be talking at cross purposes... Your mainsheet should be nowhere near the halyard winches on a performance boat. And on most performance boats the kicker is a cascade and has no need of a winch.
Performance boats that have a german mainsheet system have a dedicated pair of mainsheet winches aft. Then a pair of primaries for the jib sheets, then the halyard winches on the coachroof.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t dismiss the Arcona’s (per Seven Spades). These, together with the X Yachts (older X series or newer XP), are probably the definitive “performance cruiser”, with superb practical and tactile wood interiors. Depending on model and generation the stern may be closed or partially open, and various keel options and depths. If budget allows they would be top of my list.
The J’s are often slightly better race boats, but more compromised interiors as a result.
Dufour 40 is great boat, but less “premium interior” - as are the latest Dehler generation and more recent Elans (not Impression, which are pure cruisers).
Starlight great but getting older, as are most Dehler 39 and Sweden Yachts.
Wauquiez 40 (the stern cockpit one, not the deck saloon one) a rarer but very attractive boat also, if a little less performance than an Arcona or X.
The J’s are often slightly better race boats, but more compromised interiors as a result.
Dufour 40 is great boat, but less “premium interior” - as are the latest Dehler generation and more recent Elans (not Impression, which are pure cruisers).
Starlight great but getting older, as are most Dehler 39 and Sweden Yachts.
Wauquiez 40 (the stern cockpit one, not the deck saloon one) a rarer but very attractive boat also, if a little less performance than an Arcona or X.
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