What or where is the nastiest wind against tide situation?

Storyline said:
I agree the Sound can get really nasty. We had been going up and down dozens of times but one day it got us. Going North with a following wind with a big spring tide under us. Even before we got to the top we could see the sea looked confused and when we got to the lighthouse on Islay it was horrendous. We had planned to go over to Tinkers Hole but there was no way. We were desperate to get into Loch Tarbert. It was such a huge relief to get under the lee of Jura. The whisky came out as soon as we got the hook down.
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The problem I had was that the tide was heading north at more than my hull speed, so there was no way to run away from the great nastiness. Basically we just had to sit there and take it, getting sicker and sicker. Only time I've ever sent a pan-pan.
 
Storyline said:
That sounds truly awful - a nightmare. Did you get towed in ?
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Yup. Not my proudest moment. Thank you, Port Askaig RNLI.

As a demonstration of how unexpectedly horrible it was, conditions in Port Askaig were so benign that the lifeboat crew didn't bother with drysuits when they set out. Then they lost two of their own crew overboard and had to recover them ...
 
The Corran Narrows on Loch Linnhie-once met someone who had come through wind over tide in a big racing yacht with a wing keel when the boat dropped about twenty feet and left the wings behind!
 
Roberto said:
I'd suggest a thorough revision of physics :rolleyes:

or coastal engineering, or oceanography, or whatever :)
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You shouldn't make too much of a garbled report of something very few forumites showed any signs of understanding in the first place.

Last year I went looking for an academically-accepted mathematical explanation of the wind against tide effect, and found one. It made good physics sense to me. I'm not Stephen Hawking but I did get a degree in the subject from a Uni with a decent reputation in the field.

Anyway, I doubt the mob ever read past the first few lines before baying for blood. A few people got it, but I suspect they understood it in the first place. Quite a number of vociferous posters got fixated on the bit of the model that describes wave generation in an area of constant uniform flow against a constant wind without understanding that it is an idealised model and not a description of the last choppy bit of water they sailed in themselves. It's a vague recollection of that bit that you saw posted.

Put simply, the effect should really be called waves against tide. Any waves anyone encounters that are bigger than the tinniest ripples have been generated over time. For the sorts of waves that cause inconvenience/alarm/fear in the so-called wind over tide case they will have been generated over many hours across a whole spectrum of tidal and wind conditions. It's when these waves move into an area where the tide is against them that they slow down, grow in height and can steepen to the point of breaking. The wavelength is reduced and kinetic energy is converted into potential energy.

That has nothing to do with the wind that is blowing at that time (not obvious as the current wind might well be very similar to the wind over the last few hours that have generated the tide making them appear to be linked).

Anyway, I tried explaining before and gave up and left the forum so I won't waste much time a second time. I've just re-registered so presumably it will be a while before this gets moderated and added to the thread. Have fun.
 
Daydream believer said:
saltylegs said:
Strangford bar on the ebb with a southerly gale.
/QUOTE]

I thought that this was about wind over tide situations
But if you are including bars then there is a pretty rough pub just up the road from the harbour in Newlyn
& it can be just as rough regardless of wind & tide
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For some strange reason I like bars with a bit of carrecter.:)
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ffiill said:
The Corran Narrows on Loch Linnhie-once met someone who had come through wind over tide in a big racing yacht with a wing keel when the boat dropped about twenty feet and left the wings behind!
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I liked the old Corran Ferries. Was on the big 9 car one when we shipped water on deck once.
 
Given that the wind mostly blows up from the south-west, and the Severn pours more-or-less to the south-west down the Bristol Channel, shouldn't there be some pretty amazing wind-against-current thereabouts, on a spring ebb?
 
JumbleDuck said:
Yup. Not my proudest moment. Thank you, Port Askaig RNLI.

As a demonstration of how unexpectedly horrible it was, conditions in Port Askaig were so benign that the lifeboat crew didn't bother with drysuits when they set out. Then they lost two of their own crew overboard and had to recover them ...
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There is absolutely no shame in that. I am sure I would have done the same. Your number one duty is to look after yourself and your crew. I used to be friendly with Marion in the Port Askaig hotel and have heard the locals talking about what can happen in the sound. I always assumed they were exaggerating a bit but now I know it is true. I will take a bit more care when planning passages up/down there in future.
 
The main lesson we have learned about wind over tide is the huge difference between springs and neaps when going round headlands. The three we know best are the Mulls of Galloway & Kyntyre and Ardnamurchan. All three can get horrendous in anything over a 4 with wind against a big spring tide.
 
Storyline said:
The main lesson we have learned about wind over tide is the huge difference between springs and neaps when going round headlands. The three we know best are the Mulls of Galloway & Kyntyre and Ardnamurchan. All three can get horrendous in anything over a 4 with wind against a big spring tide.
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Just add to the list any of the Friesian Island zeegats in N/NW/NE F5+ wind against tide, on the half ebb esp. Oh, and the Schaarhoorn has sunk at least one yacht this 'summer' too per our Navtex.
Now, if I can just find that photo of the Baltrum zeegat, from the safety of the new seaward seawall....
 
Always wanted to sail an e-boat (love the thought of them since nearly bought one years ago, but the reported 'submarining' turned my Mrs off).
 
Swanrad2 said:
Always wanted to sail an e-boat (love the thought of them since nearly bought one years ago, but the reported 'submarining' turned my Mrs off).
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Great fun boats. Ive never had any real problems with mine, and I sail it regularly in some awful conditions, mainly by myself.

My wife was aboard during the incident I mentioned earlier. She loved every bit of it. I was scared................ really scared! I didnt let her see it though!
Ive been quite relaxed sailing her ever since, knowing that its actually a great wee sea-boat. I can go sailing on days most wont bother, and return with my deck still bone-dry. The E-Boat seems to float over big waves easily, as its so light and bouoyant, where larger heavier boats would just plough through. It does sail poorly in short steep chop though, where it slams and stops herself. In situations like that, heel her over more and use the rudder like an elevator to keep her riding the chop up and down. Then she makes decent headway.
Sorry for the fred-drift folks.
 
I have time to expand on my earlier post. Taking a friends Waarschip (23ft, fin keel) under outboard from Warrington to Liverpool Marina. Anchored in the lee of Hale Head and waited for the Spring Ebb - weighed anchor and were taken out in VERY shallow water over hard sand banks by around 6-8kts of tide (estimate) into a gale funneled down the Mersey (which by the way gets a tidal bore from time to time). We were a few hundred feet off the bank and a few feet at best from being dropped onto the sand in every trough. We had no choice in course it was the teeth of the gale and hope or run her into the bank.

I would like to tell you what the wind speed was at this point, I cant, we had full oilies on and ski masks and could still barely see where we were going. That was one wet boat - drowned my first mobile phone on that trip, the pockets of my waterproofs must of been waterproof because they were full of water when we tied up at the Marina.

A few years previously I was on the same stretch of water in a Halbourg Rasset 40 footer I think, that was practically stopped dead in the same conditions. I have to say this felt a little safer though! Being new to sailing, I asked the skipper what he would do if the engine failed - how stupid was that - the guy never asked me out on his boat again.
 
Exiting the Elbe probably comes pretty high up the list - certainly one of the more testing sails I have had. 'The book' says not to do it in a strong wind against tide, and is advice that is well made.
 
Pye_End said:
Exiting the Elbe probably comes pretty high up the list - certainly one of the more testing sails I have had. 'The book' says not to do it in a strong wind against tide, and is advice that is well made.
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+1 on the Elbe-Absolutely so, 22/05/2013, Gale 9 NW, 2-4m waves all day til 22.30hrs resulted in a German CG ship(!) on station off Cuxhafen marinas turning all outbound leisure traffic back into the Cuxhafen marinas, even the 'Cruising Swiss' yacht not allowed out!:D
Terrific lot of helio traffic overhead all day, hopefully mostly Pilot xfers. We sat tight and drank tea in the yacht club marina:D
 
dancrane said:
Given that the wind mostly blows up from the south-west, and the Severn pours more-or-less to the south-west down the Bristol Channel, shouldn't there be some pretty amazing wind-against-current thereabouts, on a spring ebb?
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Yep. Particularly if you are daft enough to head out into a F6 on the biggest spring ebb of the year and head along the welsh coast skirting lavernock point. Ask me how I know this ;)

Cheers
 
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