What on Earth is this rig?

A Schooner carries the mainsail on the aft mast, that's what designates it so, staysail or whatever, but I can't see how this can be done with the Radar scanner where it is and no track so VinceH could be close.
 
Looks similar to a class of yacht called Ocean 60. We chartered two at the Island Cruising Club in the 1970s. I see no problem naming her rig. Schooner because both masts are the same height, and she does not necessarily have to have a sail on the aft side mainmast, the big stays'l making her a stays'l schooner. If she carries a sail between the masts aloft, probably a 4 sided one, it would be called a fisherman stays'l.
The first sail forward of the foremast is called the fore stays'l and could well be on a boom making it self tacking. Forward of that could be a jib and forward again, and higher, a jib tops'l, but she would need a bowsprit for those.
The rig was popular for a while on yachts of 50ft+ in the 60s and 70s when gaff rigged schooners were considered too difficult to handle for amateur sailors.
 
Two masts of the same height does not mean it's a schooner, a schooner carries it's mainsail on the aft mast.
 
I have, with respect, to disagree with you. I have in my sailing library several books which all agree that a schooner is a sailing ship with two or more masts which are fore and aft rigged. The word is thought to be of North American origin and is widely used to describe a vessel with a foremast shorter than or of the same height as the mainmast. This is the most comprehensive description and can be found in Schutt's Sailing Dictionary. A similar description occurs in old editions of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship Vol 1. There were many schooners with more than two masts, the most being seven on the Thomas W Lawson which was a complete failure.
My own experience of sailing schooners is in the more traditional two masted gaff rigged which, as you rightly say, has the mainsail on the mainmast which is usually taller than the foremast, but equal height masts were common for a while, including the Ocean 60 schooners in which I did sail a couple of times at the ICC.
 
Carter Luna staysail schooner

She looks like a Carter Luna 50 - I met a sistership to her here in Barbados about 18 years ago after they had crossed the Atlantic.
Lots of very novel ideas on board the vessel I saw (an aft cockpit version), in true Dick Carter tradition, including (I think) a lifting keel, and a topsy turvey accomodation with the saloon aft.

Here is a link to a sistership perhaps (although they call her a 53) :
http://www.yachtworld.fr/boats/1816777/0
 
Wrong,
She is a staysail schooner, masts equal ,or aft taller Schooner!

She is a St SailS because she carries staysails on both masts, no boom on the fore mast.

If she had a boom on the after mast it would make no difference.

She is certainly, Not a modern Square Rigger, my my!

Very nice trade wind rig, IF, you must have two masts,.

A cutter much better, up to 60ft. IMHO.
Bill.
 
With respect it was originally Dutch and 'poached' by the Americas and a 2 masted Schooner has a main mast aft which carries the mainsail and a foremast ,which is the other way round to a Ketch or Yawl which has a main and mizzen, one is forward of the helm and the other aft respectively. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I take issue with you as to the word's origin, which according to the Oxford Book of Word Origins is "uncertain". It does not mention either Dutch or American.
Do you have any references or documents which substantiate your claim for it to be Dutch? Are you Dutch yourself, or fluent in Dutch, for instance? As I said previously, some of my references suggest that it is possibly a North American word, and I have spoken with others who agree. This is the first time I have heard of it being Dutch, and really would be interested to hear where you get this information.
Having sailed in schooners (some with masts of equal height), ketches, and yawls, for the past 30 years I mainly agree with your description of the rig which differs only from mine in that you do not recognise vessels with masts of equal height as being anything at all. I think I will stick with my definition.
 
Thanks to Bajansailor, I think that we now have the definitive answer as to the make of yacht. That said, I am staying clear of any definition as to its rig, others better informed can slug that one out.

Here are a couple of pictures of the yacht in question in Birdham Pool:

018.jpg


023.jpg


Note the name on the transom.

Here is a picture of the Carter Luna 50:

1816777_1.jpg


These are the same boats without any shadow of a doubt. I still can't work out how the thing sails though.

Many thanks for all your fascinating ideas and detective work.
 
It's tempting to think that the radar will be "blind" to what is directly ahead, but with a fair bit of leeway, I surmise that the radar will "peek" round the mast.

Anyway, in recent discussions, we have heard a lot about PofB and similar which come charging up on you from astern.....
 
Well, she's got two masts, so (under currently available definitions) she's either a yawl, a ketch or a schooner. The differentiation between these is normally mast height. If the aft mast is shorter, she's either a yawl or a ketch. That's not true in this case. So, that only leaves schooner as an available definition. Schooners may have two or more masts. And the masts may be of equal height. This all fits.

It is true, of course (groan), that the tallest mast usually carries the main sail. But to say that the aft mast must carry the main sail to be a schooner would cast this rig into the dustbin of 'undefined'.

Incidentally, our family had a lovely early 1700 print of a Dutch sea scene which included two vessels of schooner rig. Whether they were called schooners then, I don't know. But there's no denying that's what they'd be called nowadays. And I'm equally sure that the ancient Dutch seamen had no name then for Bermuda rigged schooners or ketches!
 
Looking at photo No 14 it is not quite clear, but my guess is that the forward mast with the black cruising chute (?) hanging off it is taller by a smidgin than the other two which would just about qualify her to be a ketch. Typical sales pics tho', 13 of the 15 are interiors.
 
Why you should ''take issue'' in a friendly discussion with like minded people is beyond me and obviously we have different reference books but I did not say a schooner should only have two masts or of diferent sizes just that the main is carried aft.
So to find something we can both refer to I looked up Wikipedia's version, I would give you the link but don't know how so if you Google, it makes interesting reading.
Sorry if I've taken my time was being 'drekly'.Have a good Christmas Paul. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
So, what would you call a vessel with two equal height masts and no 'main' sail?

And there could be a difference about when and where the rig was first developed, and when and where it was first named. If I remember (and that's dodgy too) early navy 'cutters' were propelled by oar. Many early names originated from the function of a craft, rather than its rig. It was rather late in the game that people started to classify rigs . . .
 
You're right, words and even peoples names have been adapted over the years and the word schooner allegedly comes from the Scotts word 'scoon' meaning skimming, gets worse doesn't it!
 
Just noticed the original sales specs for the Carter 50 'Luna':

General
Size
Length 15,55 m, over all 15,97m
Width 4,45m
Draught 1,00/2,85 m (swiveling keel)
Hull
GRP, slightly asymmetric
3 sleeping cabins
2 bathrooms with WC
Deck
teak, repair needed, untight
Keel
swiveling lead keel, ca. 5 to, draught can be
hydraulically reduced from 3m to 1m,
rudder blade can also be lifted.
Engine
VM 688 HT, 6-Zylinder, ca 75 KW
year of construction 1987, regularly
maintained
hydraulic gear
3 folding propeller
Rigg
Staysail Schooner (2 masts, no boom!)
Tanks
ca 1000 l fresh water
ca. 500 l fuel


What's interesting is that the yacht is clearly described as:

Staysail Schooner (2 masts, no boom!)

That settles that, I hope.
 
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