What is a motor sailer?

[vjmehra]

Excuse my ignorance here, but what is the definition of a motor sailer, is it simply a yacht with a pilot house, presumably they are displacement boats, hence its not a reference to improved performance under power (vs a standard yacht with similar engine for its size I mean)?

 

[macd]

There probably isn't a precise definition, in the same way that "cruiser-racer" covers a broad spectrum of vessels. To me it's something too under-canvassed (and, usually, heavy) to move itself along at anything like hull speed in normal conditions, and thus needing engine assistance. It may or may not have a pilot house, although most seem to. No doubt others will have their own "definition".

"Motor-sailing" (the verb), of course, simply describes an activity...and perhaps one to which "motor-sailers" (the noun) are more prone.

 

[Tranona]

Excuse my ignorance here, but what is the definition of a motor sailer, is it simply a yacht with a pilot house, presumably they are displacement boats, hence its not a reference to improved performance under power (vs a standard yacht with similar engine for its size I mean)?

You will get as many definitions as people who post responses! everything from motor boats with sails to sailboats with big engines.

The definition used to be 50/50 - in other words equal performance under sail or power. In reality most modern cruising boats are motor sailors in the sense that they can achieve hull speed under power. Some builders want their sailing boats to be seen as motor orientated so call them motor sailors. Others want them to be seen as sailing boats so call them Pilot House cruisers. And so it goes on. The definitions also change over time - so in the 70s big heavy, fishing boat style hulls with wheelhouses, big engines and often smallish ketch rigs were mainstream but now so called Pilot House which are often sail orientated hulls but inside steering positions under raised coachroofs are common.

So, bit like an elephant - difficult to describe but you know what it is when you see it.

 

[NOHOH]

This came up 18months ago.... My reply then holds just as good as a definition (for me) as any I`ve heard since:-


"Perhaps the clue is in the name....Motor (is the prime source of motive power) Sail(er) (is the secondary source of motive power).....and the boat is designed around these parameters....Its got little to do with whether or not there is a wheelhouse, long keel, heavy displacement or how well it goes to windward under sail. If the sails/rig are obviously more powerful than the mechanical engine it is a sailing boat with an auxiliary motor."

 

[Kawasaki]

Some say a vessel that can't do either properly
If you are a Sailor, one wouldn't suit
If you are a Moboer, similar
I had a poor example once it definitely didn't do either
People who have 'proper' ones swear by them
The ability to maintain a passage of 6kts in most conditions is one attraction
Then under the right conditions they do sail
As for the definition
Well as macd said, there is no precise definition
When I see an advert for one as it were
It conjures up something 25/45 foot with a displacement type hull and sails with a fairly beefy motor
Dunno why but it does

 

[vjmehra]

Cool thanks, was just curious as I saw some advertised on Apollo Duck, some of which actually look very attractive, but I did wonder about the sailing performance, what everyone has said makes sense!

 

[Zagato]

Great for catching your fish supper to!

I've always liked the look of the Fishers and alike - very purposeful stance!

 

[vjmehra]

I seem to like far too many boats, I was thinking of buying later on this year, but its impossible to choose!! I am going to charter a few different boats in a few different places instead and will see if that helps me more clearly define my criteria

 

[Rossynant]

Important to remember that term "motor-sailer" originally meant any sail boat additionally equipped with engine. Sailer had no engine at all...
Later on: boat with engine big enough to give good speed at sea, as good as on sails. Not small 'auxiliary' for harbour and calms use only.

Now describes boat that is meant for engine, and sails are secondary. Simply because every sailboat now has engine giving full hull speed

 

[bitbaltic]

Wasn't the op looking at really racy things (firsts and oods etc) six weeks ago? Quite a departure

 

[vjmehra]

Indeed I was, but I listened to everyone's advice, decided to put all buying plans on hold for the foreseable future and just get some more experience of different boats, by chartering etc.

This thread was purely about curiosity to be honest

 

[bitbaltic]

Indeed I was, but I listened to everyone's advice, decided to put all buying plans on hold for the foreseable future and just get some more experience of different boats, by chartering etc.

This thread was purely about curiosity to be honest

I wouldn't listen to any buying advice on this forum, with the only exception being if you were to propose to buy a specific boat which you were generally advised was unseaworthy or unsafe. Otherwise, the forum represents so wide a variety of sailors and vessels, used to and used for so many different forms of sailing, that you will end up in 'paralysis by analysis'.

I'd say research yacht types well (honestly, if you haven't established in your own mind what a motor sailer might roughly be, then you need to read the books more before posting on heated forums like this), and then buy the boat that interests and excites you, and just get out on the water. The season is coming, after all. Read widely and trust your own judgement within your budget.

Cheers

 

[prv]

I am going to charter a few different boats in a few different places instead and will see if that helps me more clearly define my criteria

Certainly won't hurt, but it's unlikely to expose you to a very wide range of boats. The economics mean that nearly all charters are modernish AWBs, particularly Bavarias.

Pete

 

[V1701]

What would you want to do with the boat, "motor sailers" can be good for living aboard, enclosed wheelhouses good for our crappy weather...

 

[Sailfree]

Interesting replies.

Without thinking about it I always thought a motor sailor was a boat that could be sailed from under some sort of cover/coachroof but accepted that visits outside may be necessary to alter sail trim if sailing.

 

[PhillM]

I wouldn't listen to any buying advice on this forum, with the only exception being if you were to propose to buy a specific boat which you were generally advised was unseaworthy or unsafe. Otherwise, the forum represents so wide a variety of sailors and vessels, used to and used for so many different forms of sailing, that you will end up in 'paralysis by analysis'.

I'd say research yacht types well (honestly, if you haven't established in your own mind what a motor sailer might roughly be, then you need to read the books more before posting on heated forums like this), and then buy the boat that interests and excites you, and just get out on the water. The season is coming, after all. Read widely and trust your own judgement within your budget.

Cheers

Sorry but I cannot agree. I don't think you have any idea about what sort of boat you want until you have owned at least one. Only through the process of ownership will you learn anything like enough to discover what is really important to you. So, my advice is find a small / cheap / old but seaworthy boat and get out there. In a couple of years you will know what you really want and then you can trade in / up / down and buy your ideal boat.

 

[Sailfree]

Sorry but I cannot agree. I don't think you have any idea about what sort of boat you want until you have owned at least one. Only through the process of ownership will you learn anything like enough to discover what is really important to you. So, my advice is find a small / cheap / old but seaworthy boat and get out there. In a couple of years you will know what you really want and then you can trade in / up / down and buy your ideal boat.

Sorry but I cannot agree. We started with a 36' new sailing boat and loved it. No repairs to do just go sailing. SWMBO loved the clean toilet and the hot water shower. We had been looking at boat shows contemplating buying a boat but when we did it was on impluse after a horrid cold wet dinghy competition! Three years later we later traded up to a new 38' but coveted a 43' deck saloon that we thought was a step too far. Again 3 yrs later we quickly bought the 43' when we learn't they were ceasing production. I think many are put off sailing when their boat becomes a repair project or SWMBO hated the dirty/damp/dark interior.

There is no right or wrong way to start sailing each individual is mostly dictated to by budget constraints but its important to start in a way that will not put the family off sailing for life

 

[bitbaltic]

Sorry but I cannot agree. I don't think you have any idea about what sort of boat you want until you have owned at least one.

so according to you all of us bought our first boat without ANY IDEA of what we wanted? Maybe if by first boat you mean a dingy or inflatable. If by first boat you mean first cruiser, then that is a silly thing to say.

Only through the process of ownership will you learn anything like enough to discover what is really important to you. [/quote]

Rubbish. Plenty of people charter or sail with friends or clubs and work out what- or what they think- works for them. Definitely not the same as having no idea.

So, my advice is find a small / cheap / old but seaworthy boat and get out there. [/QUOTE]

So your advice is, instead of thinking about what boat they want because no amount of sailing with others or chartering will get them beyond having NO IDEA, people should actually subscribe to the VERY SPECIFIC idea of a small, cheap and old boat for starters. Right?

What first boat did you buy with a complete lack of ideas? I am most interested to know what budgeted pot luck gets you nowadays. Just open the classifieds in YBW and put your money down?

Cheers

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Remember the term motor-sailer was coined when sailing yachts sometimes had auxiliary engines, and the engines were exactly that - they couldn't be relied on to start, some of them needed stopping to get reverse, handling under what little power there was was abysmal and you would never reach hull speed, even at full throttle so punching a strong tide wasn't an option.

Against there was a breed of boat that might not sail as well but could easily reach hull speed, had a good range, handled under power fairly well and started on a button (well, most of the time). There were better sailer usually than the simple "stick a mast on a displacement motor boat" you sometimes saw so the term motor-sailer was usually used to describe these. Almost always motor-sailers where built with pilot houses and inside steering positions because it allowed to take advantage of having a decent engine. The assumption was that if you wanted a boat that could sail well you where a "hard-core" sailor and would put up with the elements and frustrations.

Nowadays a sailing can easily be made to perform as well as a motor-sailer so the term is meaningless really - an LM30 sails just as well as many other 30' yachts and doesn't really up anything to engine. You got a bit more windage from the pilot house but that's all. Compare her to Victoria 30 and the only real difference is the superstructure yet the Victoria is very much a sailing yacht and the LM30 very much a "motor-sailer".

 

[AntarcticPilot]

so according to you all of us bought our first boat without ANY IDEA of what we wanted? Maybe if by first boat you mean a dingy or inflatable. If by first boat you mean first cruiser, then that is a silly thing to say.

"First boat" is a bit elastic too! My boat is the first I've ever owned, but I've been on and around boats for a lot of my life - first in my Dad's boat, then several charter holidays and my brother's boat. When I came to buy for myself, although I had never owned a boat before, I had a pretty good idea of what I was looking for, and so far so good! I don't look to change for a while yet; what I've got suits me.