What if we were forced back to the dark ages?

[Heckler]

We are a self sufficient lot. Part of the allure of boating I suspect is the ability to make ourselves a self contained world. Now, just suppose that Armegeddon happened, life as we know it has come to an end, no electricity etc etc. For the first few years we live on "stuff" left behind. BUT what happens when eventually all the working bits are gone and we have to start again.
I was talking to a customer the other day about it, I know how to smelt iron and copper, we can even get the ore from Brymbo and Anglesey but once we have the raw metal, how do we make things? Who made the first lathe? but from that how did they make the first lathe without a lathe to make the bits?
I could make a crude genny but where would the bearings come from? Or the shaft to wind the copper wire on, indeed, who would make the wire?
And all that just for a bit of power!
Discuss!
Stu

 

[elton]

Easy. Put together a crack team of graduate engineers, chemists, physicists etc. managed by a few experienced high flying MBAs. Everbody else does the physical labour.

 

[Heckler]

Easy. Put together a crack team of graduate engineers, chemists, physicists etc. managed by a few experienced high flying MBAs. Everbody else does the physical labour.

Ah but the crack team wouldnt know sh it from shinola about the practicalities of making things from scratch!
Stu

 

[elton]

Ah but the crack team wouldnt know sh it from shinola about the practicalities of making things from scratch!
Stu

On the contrary. They would know more. Not only would they know more about making things from scratch, but they would have the knowlege to use what raw materials they have to make tools, and to take the raw materials through complex multi-stage processes to create what they need.

 

[sarabande]

Worked for 10 years preparing for exactly those scenarios. Got all the plans and reference books from the end of the Cold War, and the Home Office "Civil Defence" project.

You need water ? Food ? Emergency Shelter ? The MAFF Civil Defence Handbooks covered them all.

Then today there are such books as The Nuclear Survival Handbook, and Jane's Citizen's Safety Guide.

A few other forumites also involved, so you are in good hands .

Yes, you need the technical knowledge at a high level, but I'd rather value a small group of hands-on practical people to provide the core services and re-start independent self-sufficient communities.

 

[FullCircle]

Worked for 10 years preparing for exactly those scenarios. Got all the plans and reference books from the end of the Cold War, and the Home Office "Civil Defence" project.

You need water ? Food ? Emergency Shelter ? The MAFF Civil Defence Handbooks covered them all.

Then today there are such books as The Nuclear Survival Handbook, and Jane's Citizen's Safety Guide.

A few other forumites also involved, so you are in good hands .

Yes, you need the technical knowledge at a high level, but I'd rather value a small group of hands-on practical people to provide the core services and re-start independent self-sufficient communities.

What sailmaker will I need to go to?

 

[Lady Campanula]

In a society where a goodly proportion cannot light a fire in a hearth without 'artificial aids', many would be quite unable to revert to a simpler mode. This has long been known by survival specialists.....

The Royal Air Force has, for decades, run a series of winter survival courses in Germany and Norway for tactical aircrew. It was normal -after the 'studes' had been roughing it in the frozen woods for a day or three, lighting fires, building shelters, getting hungry, and setting snares -for the Directing Staff to bring along some rabbits and show 'em how to gut, skin and prepare a bunnie for cooking. That was welcomed, for most of the fit guys were visibly slowing down, short of blood sugar and physical energy by then.

OK so far....

After that, the DS would advise that they'd brought some rabbits for the course members to practice on, and ask who was prepared to kill, prepare and cook their own lunch. Everyone stepped forward.... until the DS produced a couple of big, fat, live Pet Rabbits. Just about everyone then stepped back, unwilling to participate in the demise of a live cuddly pet!

The lesson wasn't about rabbit cookery, but much more fundamental. Simply put, most people wouldn't recognise/respond to the change in vital circumstances fast enough and shed their 'civilised' behaviour quick enough to be able to keep themselves functioning. By the time they'd got around to adjusting, they'd be too weak to be effective hunter-gatherers - or even wood-fuel gatherers!

Translate that into a city society, and expect millions of deaths from starvation once the electricity and gas failed.

And yes, yotties might well fare better - but only among those who can already light a fire and would truly be willing to eat the family dog or cat before the neighbours did.....

 

[BrendanS]

I can honestly say I'd survive fine! I can light a fire and eat just about anything, raw or cooked, but preferably cooked, after killing it myself. It is a wonderment to me that so many people think meat is something that comes in a polystyrene tray with cling film over it, and get jitters about actually killing anything themselves.

I could probably smelt and make basic metals, if I could find and identify the ores (I'd probably struggle with the latter) and extract it, but as to turning that into more advanced objects, I'd probably be thinking of raiding libraries very early on to find any old tomes with basic instructions, and the idea of making ball bearings would tax my ingenuity tremendously.

 

[Little Rascal]

Day of the Triffids.
John Wyndam explores some of those issues...

PS dont eat just rabbits will you?

 

[Seven Spades]

Ha have you seen the BBC there is a meteorite show due for the next two days. Was that the inspiration of this post?

The answer to this question is that anarchy would dominate with millions starving and murdered. Those capable of being self sufficient would probably end up as slaves of those who could not. Oh have I just describe progressive taxation?

 

[BrendanS]

In all honesty, as well as raiding libraries for useful books, I'd be looking for weaponry where ever I could find it. And not just firearms. I'd look for 'silent' weapons, such as bows or crossbows, as I'd not want to advertise I was knocking off an invader with a rifle shot

 

[Lakesailor]

On the contrary. They would know more. Not only would they know more about making things from scratch, but they would have the knowlege to use what raw materials they have to make tools, and to take the raw materials through complex multi-stage processes to create what they need.

This summer I watched Cambridge University students (from some dept of applied mechanical engineering or somesuch, that's what it said on the mini buses) totally fail to complete tasks that scouts with a bit of twine and some bamboo canes would have done in 10 minutes.
The security of our technological future is secure.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Day of the Triffids.
John Wyndam explores some of those issues...

PS dont eat just rabbits will you?

....Can certainly stretch to the odd vagrant sheep and red deer. Piggie-wiggies and chickens, too. Swan, goose, pheasant ( careful with the spelin there...! ) too.

And 'there's nothing quite so tasty as a fresh-run fish from another man's river....'

Root crops, berries, nuts, too. But bread - growing, harvesting, winnowing, grinding, mixing, keeping the makings, making the dough and baking the loaves - is a complex and time-consuming skill I'd have to learn.

So also is viniculture.....

And the rearing/training of hunting dogs....

 

[duncanmack]

In a society where a goodly proportion cannot light a fire in a hearth without 'artificial aids', many would be quite unable to revert to a simpler mode. This has long been known by survival specialists.....

Translate that into a city society, and expect millions of deaths from starvation once the electricity and gas failed.
.....

I just googled the population of UK in the 1800 census. A very sobering 10.5 million. That was with a very much less urbanised population. I wonder just how many could be supported now.

 

[prv]

the idea of making ball bearings would tax my ingenuity tremendously.

So don't. Make stuff b-i-i-g and you don't need to worry about small losses. Think of machines (mills, pumps, etc) from the 1700s which were built as much from masonry and oak as from iron and steel. Lots of grease/tallow/etc for plain bearings.

That's the sort of tech level that modern hands-on non-numpties could get cracking with straight away. I agree that the majority of Western city-dwelling numpties would be in trouble fast.

Pete

 

[BrendanS]

That would be my first line of doing things, but if you lose the ability to do the more advanced engineering in the first generation, my guess is you wouldn't get it back for many many generations.

 

[Sandyman]

Most of today's generation are totally useless. Dont worry about lighting fires, they cant even make a cup of tea. They cant do anything for themselves. Which is exactly where big business wants them,

Still, non to worry, when it all kicks off God will appear from the mist & save everybody.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I would borrow BrendanS's (?) weapons to get rid of the high flying MBA's as quickly as possible. I haven't found much use for them so far and I reckon they'd be even worse without technology to hide behind.

The most valuable people would be historians surely? A metallurgist may know an awful lot about the production of modern metals but I doubt if he or she would be able to design a low-tech functioning smelter.

Just about everything I would use was learnt either in the RAF, from my parents or by just having a go, not as part of my job.

Weapons would be largely for self-defence. Rabbits would be a prime source of protein as they can be trapped. Hunting isn't anything like as easy as it seems when you're trying to catch your dinner. Fishing would also be popular and the fish stocks would recover fairly quickly in some areas I'd have thought, given no bottom trawling, etc.

In practice I don't think we'd go back to the dark ages - we'd descend into anarchy (some may question the use of the word descend) and a huge proportion of the population would die off. Birth rates would drop dramatically and infant mortality rates would be very high but there would still be a lot of stuff lying around for a long time - buildings, metals, etc.

 

[TQA]

Let me see

2 Cuban shade tree mechanics with their hammers and chisels
2 Afghanee gunsmiths with pole lathes
2 Chinese backyard iron smelters
and the ships engineer that keeps the Vital Spark running

and we will produce what you need in time.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Someone once said that the human race is only 48 hours and two meals from barbarism. The cities in the UK with populations over 5 million will spew forth legions of desperate, selfish people hell bent on survival at your cost. As Wyndam wrote, "We do not even go back to the stone age."

Then again a slow death by plague may do just the same as the clever people die and leave the manky dolts grubbing around in the detritus, miserable in their squaller.

I think you have to think more in terms of day to day survival i.e. not getting noticed by the tooled up nutters.

Then again who knows, it all depends, luck of the draw, didn't see that coming; rarely, serendipity.