What do you say to people offering to take your lines?

[Simondjuk]

We're usually double handed on a 40 foot boat and arriving with a plan which generally involves a midships line which is already coiled and in the hands of the person at the midships cleat. There's no way we're going to abandon the plan at the last minute to go and pick up a different and less useful line to pass ashore.

On the occasions we are asked, we usually just request that the bight of midships line we pass is 'dropped' (this word deters oxoing) over the appropriate, pointed to, cleat.

I'm not ungrateful, but in tricky situations I generally find offers of help more distracting than helpful as my focus tends to shift to the helper lest they do something unexpected rather than remaining on the original plan.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I also think a lot seem to have their mooring arrangement set in stone. There are so many variables without outside help buggering things up that to you have to be open to a bit of lets deal with it as it happens. I'm not saying don't have a plan and don't be aware of conditions but just be prepared for the unexpected.

Yes, that's what I meant by Never confuse what you expect to happen, what you want to happen and what you need to happen. I think some skippers are approaching with such a firm idea about what rope is going to be tied on where and in what order (probably through lack of experience and/or confidence) that the prospect of any variation panics them.

You see quite a bit of this on the Crinan Canal where most locks have bollards or loops at the 0/3, 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 positions (the front boat generally uses 0 and 2, the back one 1 and 3) but some do not. Someone comes along, all set to put lines where he thinks the bollards will be, finds they are not and gets in a right old tizzy.

 

[Sybarite]

It would last about three days, then somebody would not drop the line fully down and it would be wrenched off.

It's really just a question of faith.... and a reverse gear. Sorry that you don't appear to have one.

 

[Robin]

"could you just hold the bow of the boat please"

That gets them off the finger where I / crew are about to step onto with our mooring ropes, and also stops the bow swinging around. It also puts them in a good position to subsequently pass them the bow breast lines.

Re hooking of cleats rather than stepping off the boat, how do you deal with fingers with no cleats at the ends - eg just a closed metal hoop, like in some French marinas?

+1 For our regular home berth a pre-measured spring line to drop over the finger end cleat, once 'on' then tickover in gear with wheel over would hold the boat in position for other lines to be put on at leisure. For the French style closed 'D 'ends we had (and took with us to use here) large snaphooks which can be mounted on a boathook and slide off when it is pulled away, otherwise pass the lineand hook through the closed 'D' and clip the hook back onto the line we had two such lines with hooks so we could have lines/fenders on both sides in readiness for whatever available slot wewere allocated or found. These large mouth hooks will actually fit directly over the 'D' end cleats of most gallic marinas but if not then step ashore, then pass the line/clip through and clip back ontoitself works just fine the instruction 'just hold the bow please' to helpers ashore is perfect, it gives the helper ashore something useful to do without interfering with a well rehearsed maneuver

 

[Rigger Mortice]

It's really just a question of faith.... and a reverse gear. Sorry that you don't appear to have one.

As they have never fitted the things, neither do the marina operators.

 

[Daydream believer]

Sailing single handed for 90% of the time I do appreciate help & often ask passers by to catch a rope if possible
Most are only too pleased to help & I make sure to thank them
However, I do wish people would not just yank on my guard wires & do their best to bend my stanchions or break the seal with the deck
I normally train crew to pull on the shrouds or the base of the staunchion. But passers by !!!

On one particular day I was entering a berth in Hartlepool.
As i moved forward to go ashore I tripped over the mainsheet track & caught my foot in the control lines.
As I fell on to the cockpit floor, on my back, the rope twisted & clove hitched my foot & trapped me with my leg in the air
I could not get up immediately as I had bruised my elbow & wrist
I had to take my shoe off to get it untied as I could not reach the cleat to slacken the lines

As i waited for the crash --nothing happened
To my total surprise two gentlemen saw what happened & immediately grabbed my lines which were on the side deck
They snubbed to stop the forward motion & tied the boat up -with the engine still in forward gear
Not a single scratch or chip

 

[sailaboutvic]

I used to spend time training people to work with children. My main advice to them was Never confuse what you expect to happen, what you want to happen and what you need to happen. I think that goes for sailing too.

Well said .

 

[dslittle]

All and any help is appreciated so notmally a request of where I want it and a Thank-you. With regards to asking them to hold the bow, that would be very interesting as we normally go in stern too for the dog (he doesn't help with mooring up though!!!)

 

[snowleopard]

I do wish people would not just yank on my guard wires & do their best to bend my stanchions or break the seal with the deck

A topic for its own thread but it's amazing how often people use guard wires to push on. A suggestion that they aren't designed for that purpose often brings a response of 'Why didn't you make them stronger then?' A new crew, rucksack on back, grabbing the centre of the wire between stanchions and using it to swing his whole weight aboard didn't get us off to a good start. Nor did a crew who used the grab handle screwed to the deckhead to do pull-ups.

You wouldn't use a flag halyard for a bosun's chair. Why assume every part of a boat is able to take any load?

 

[James_Calvert]

A new crew, rucksack on back, grabbing the centre of the wire between stanchions and using it to swing his whole weight aboard

Sorry - maybe I've misunderstood your description - but that seems exactly how I was taught to board a yacht from an inflatable dinghy alongside when I did my RYA Competent Crew course back in 1984: Both feet on inside of the tube, both hands on the guard wire leaning right back so your feet keep the dinghy pressed against the yacht, first foot up, then swing yourself up pulling hard on the guard wire.

This should be fine because the strain put on the wire is almost all taken at the wire ends at the pulpit and pushpit, the stanchion tops hardly move at all unless the wire is already too slack. ( And ideally the stanchion bottoms would be free to wobble a bit in their sockets enough for the wire to take the load before the stanchions do - mine are)

I agree that pushing a boat away with the guardwires can do damage. But pulling on them from outboard should be fine.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A topic for its own thread but it's amazing how often people use guard wires to push on. A suggestion that they aren't designed for that purpose often brings a response of 'Why didn't you make them stronger then?' A new crew, rucksack on back, grabbing the centre of the wire between stanchions and using it to swing his whole weight aboard didn't get us off to a good start. Nor did a crew who used the grab handle screwed to the deckhead to do pull-ups.

You wouldn't use a flag halyard for a bosun's chair. Why assume every part of a boat is able to take any load?

What's the guard wire for, then, if not to take human-sized loads? You might as well stick a bosun's chair on the end of the flag halyard and then scream "Don;t use that" at anyone who goes near it.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I agree that pushing a boat away with the guardwires can do damage. But pulling on them from outboard should be fine.

I don't understand why pulling will be better than pushing the wires. I certainly wouldn't want to do that on my boat and would be surprised if it were included by RYA in its syllabus.

 

[jerrytug]

A topic for its own thread but it's amazing how often people use guard wires to push on. A suggestion that they aren't designed for that purpose often brings a response of 'Why didn't you make them stronger then?' A new crew, rucksack on back, grabbing the centre of the wire between stanchions and using it to swing his whole weight aboard didn't get us off to a good start. Nor did a crew who used the grab handle screwed to the deckhead to do pull-ups.

You wouldn't use a flag halyard for a bosun's chair. Why assume every part of a boat is able to take any load?

It's a good point about different bits of the boat being able to take different loads, and only people who are familiar with yachts could possibly be expected to know.
However I would disagree with your grab handle remark, a grab handle's one and only job is to be strong enough for the heaviest crew member imaginable to do pull-ups on it, all day long!
I jumped down into a brand new J*nneau once and reached up to steady myself on the grab handle, and the whole thing 'came away in my hand', shocking.

 

[James_Calvert]

I don't understand why pulling will be better than pushing the wires. I certainly wouldn't want to do that on my boat and would be surprised if it were included by RYA in its syllabus.

Assuming the guard wires are arranged along the outside of a conventional boat shaped deck, they will take up the approximate shape of a shallow curve. If you pull from the outside of this curve, you are trying to make the curved shape bigger, and the wires will resist this quite naturally without much change in the shape of the curve. So there will be little loading on the stanchion tops - indeed if the wire is already preloaded a little, your pull may smooth the curve and reduce the nearby stanchion top loadings. If however you push inwards, you are effectively trying to push a kink into the curve which the stanchions will resist.

Another way of looking at it is to think about how the forces are working horizontally:

With no external loading on the wire, you've got the wire kept in a curve by the stanchions. So the stanchions are being pulled inwards by the wire. If you pull outwards on the wire, you are initially relieving this inward pull so reducing the net outward pull. But if you push on the wire, this adds to the inward pull, so the overall force on the stanchions is bigger.

This disparity in forces is recognised in stanchion base design, where you might have two screws on the outside of the base, and just one on the inside.

 

[Gordonmc]

Assuming the guard wires are arranged along the outside of a conventional boat shaped deck, they will take up the approximate shape of a shallow curve. If you pull from the outside of this curve, you are trying to make the curved shape bigger, and the wires will resist this ...

UNTIL the pelican clip on the gate section is released on going alongside and there is no resistance at one end of the guard wire.
When boarding from a dinghy at the gate I tell peeps to use strong points which are in reach, a winch and a 1" tube rail, not the stanchion which is screwed onto a teak toe-rail.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Assuming the guard wires are arranged along the outside of a conventional boat shaped deck, they will take up the approximate shape of a shallow curve. If you pull from the outside of this curve, you are trying to make the curved shape bigger, and the wires will resist this quite naturally without much change in the shape of the curve. So there will be little loading on the stanchion tops - indeed if the wire is already preloaded a little, your pull may smooth the curve and reduce the nearby stanchion top loadings. If however you push inwards, you are effectively trying to push a kink into the curve which the stanchions will resist.

Another way of looking at it is to think about how the forces are working horizontally:

With no external loading on the wire, you've got the wire kept in a curve by the stanchions. So the stanchions are being pulled inwards by the wire. If you pull outwards on the wire, you are initially relieving this inward pull so reducing the net outward pull. But if you push on the wire, this adds to the inward pull, so the overall force on the stanchions is bigger.

This disparity in forces is recognised in stanchion base design, where you might have two screws on the outside of the base, and just one on the inside.

Sorry, but I have to ask.....Is that an true engineering evaluation or a "what I think is happening" viewpoint?

I'm not being obtuse but I just don't know and, whilst you are making me rethink my own thoughts on how I treat lifelines, I would like to know that it is based on sound theory.

 

[Poignard]

'What do you say to people offering to take your lines? '

Are your hands clean?

 

[Jamesuk]

B*gger off?

What do you do?

Go to the dock check it out then if someone offers then I say ahh ok "Can you put the bowline on that cleat, (point to it) yes the one by the lifering"

I then arrive and the bowline gets dropped over the cleat and control is then transferred back to the crew on the boat.

Job done! Always avoid giving them a "long" piece of line. They will do what they think and not what you want

Cheers back to S video

 

[James_Calvert]

UNTIL the pelican clip on the gate section is released on going alongside and there is no resistance at one end of the guard wire.
When boarding from a dinghy at the gate I tell peeps to use strong points which are in reach, a winch and a 1" tube rail, not the stanchion which is screwed onto a teak toe-rail.

Yes - you're right of course.

If the stanchion/strut arrangement either side of the gate section (I don't have one) can't take the strain of the wires instead of the pushpit/pulpit, then the system I've described has a break in it and won't work to protect the intervening stanchions (from pulling/pushing or indeed falling against).

 

[James_Calvert]

Sorry, but I have to ask.....Is that an true engineering evaluation or a "what I think is happening" viewpoint?

I'm not being obtuse but I just don't know and, whilst you are making me rethink my own thoughts on how I treat lifelines, I would like to know that it is based on sound theory.

I'm not a rigger (like you) but I studied engineering and look to see how things like this work. Gordonmc has already pointed out one pitfall, in that if you take away the ability of the wire to take any strain - in his case by having a break in it - then it won't protect the stanchions (from an outward pull). Just the same effect would occur if the wire was not tensioned enough in the first place, thereby allowing a stanchion to move too much before the increased tension in the wire started to restrain it.

These thoughts are a very long way from a full engineering analysis. It was simple enough for me to visualise and so explain why a guard wire and stanchion system is stronger in one horizontal direction to another. The scenario is more complex for forces in the vertical plane - for example if you sit on your guard wires there's an inward component to the stresses on the system (and that's bad). But a more angled downward pull from outside the boat - eg when boarding from a dinghy - will counteract this inward component and this normally ought to be fine.

There may indeed be boats where the guardwires are mostly for show - or for hanging tea-towels on - and if anyone thinks they have one of these, by all means continue to avoid stressing them!

For snowleapard - sorry about the thread drift - as you said it's a thread in its own right...and I'm beginning to wish I hadn't bit!