What are you paying for

Re: Lead? Weight? Engine? Sails? Tankage?

I think another point worth mentioning is the tremendous buying power of volume building.

I am reliably informed that a an engine costing say 9k is obtained for less than 1k for the likes of Bavaria.

The engine manufacturers take the loss to gain market share. An overall long term profit is made through parts, servicing, and hopefully repeat business.


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Just 300kg more...

Ah, right, that'd be the teak decks, heating, calorifier, shower, carpets, curtains, windscreen, bigger batteries, better instruments, bigger engine, bigger tanks, and the fact that it's built to go anywhere without falling to pieces.

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Re: Lead? Weight? Engine? Sails? Tankage?

Ken,

A deep, lead keel is a optional extra if you want it. Only about 1 in 10 or thereabouts bother, which probably sums up the typical Bavaria owner i.e. more interested in volume and value for money than outright performance.

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Me to, (including the car!)

Actually, the real question is surely, why anybody would buy a new boat, be it Bavaria, HR or a Mirror Dinghy. To me it seems senseless. Maybe anyone who has could tell me


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Well, Bavaria specs aren\'t very transparent...

...whereas HR specs tell you exactly what you're getting. I'd suggest that the general standard of HR standard equipment is considerably better than Bavaria standard equipment. This would include mast section, rigging size, winch specs, etc, etc.

What is obvious is the quality of construction and craftsmanship which goes in to making a HR, and which is the reason why - 10 or 15 years later - resale values are so high.

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I think it is unfair to criticise Baveria's due to the high number of new ones that are for sale. The initial low price of Bavaria's has encouraged many to take up their dream of sailing and I believe a very high proportion of sales are to first time buyers. Maybe the dream did not match reality or the amount of time they managed to actually spent sailing was a disappointment. More likely the high cost of south coast marinas made them realise what a rip of sailing is, a new 36 baveria cost equals only say 8 years berthing cost in the solent! How would you feel if the parking charge for your car is 1/8 the new cost of your car!
Just be grateful they are introducing many new people to sailing a big boat even if they decide to quickly give up or get an even better boat. Now what would that "better " boat be?
For family reasons my cousin had to sell his nearly new Bavaria. He was upset that they were by then offering a model two feet longer for less money than the original headline price of his. His was well equipped and hence depreciation was more than he liked but Opel sold it no problems.
One thing to consider is not the headline price but the like for like price. I drew up a very detailed specification and was suprised how close the Bavarias price then was to it's competitors.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Sailfree on 21/01/2004 00:22 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
I agree about the price being much closer than first appears. I looked at Bavarias last time round and really came to the conclusion that nobody would buy the basic speck and nby the time you added on ‘extras’ (but really ‘essentials’) the savings were nowhere near as great as they appeared.

On your point of why people buy Bavs (and I am not picking on them here, in fact this could relate to any new boat) If I am approached by anyone thinking of starting sailing, I definitely advise against splashing out on a new boat of any type. I would suggest they start with a small second hand boat, something easy to handle and where a couple of coming togethers with finger pontoons, harbour walls, lock gates and the like would not be the end of the world. It involves less outlay, in both initial investment, but also in mooring fees, and if they find it is not for them, then given the right boat they can back out without a loss on their capital. Wouldn’t you do the same?


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Re: specifically, what was the joinery damage?

I onlyy ask because on a sunsail sharter we had cause to dismantle the whole of the joinery in a jenneau 45.2 to replace the cold water tank. The doors lift off, the architraves/doorframes come off with eight screws, matress out, then more cross head screws to hoik out the rest. It looked a total disaster of course but actually wasn't.

I do feel that the only way to significantly reduce the slamming would be to have a longer keel shape like an Island Packet.






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Re: Well, Bavaria specs aren\'t very transparent...

I agree that the "handbuilt" quality of build, especially of the interior joinery, is better than that of Bavarias, but it flaming well ought to be to justify the huge price differential!! I would question however that that the likes of Harken, Lewmar and Selden etc, actually build a special range of "inferior" winches, masts, booms and the like, simply for Bavaria.

By the way, the Bavaria specs are indeed very basic, hence the low starting price (which tends to catch the eye). It is really necessary to spend at least another £20K on top to achieve a worthwhile specification, which does then put them pretty close to the Ben/Jens. This does allow you to spec a boat to your ideal preference.

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Re: Well, Bavaria specs aren\'t very transparent...

Think you're trying to twist my words a bit. I suggested that the general standard of HR equipment was better, and that "This would include mast section, rigging size, winch specs, etc, etc". It's a fact that mast makers offer a big range of sections; HR would most probably specify one a bit beefier than most manufacturers would choose (this certainly applies to HR rigging). As for winches, the HR37 comes with Lewmar 48CST self-tailers as standard, the Bav 36 spec doesn't say what size it has.


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Both yourself and sailfree are very much on the right track; 'new to sailing', shiny new boat at 'low' price, low cost finance and a skilled salesman, next thing 'just looking' visitor to boat show becomes boat owner. To often you will now see a 36ft boat being called, a 'starter' boat. That may explain the large number of nearly new Bavs for sale, or is it? Does Mr new to sailing do a runner after a couple of years of marina charges, or does he scare himself by trying to learn to sail on a boat far to big?

As for the Bav verses HR, that will run till the end of the season!


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ETAP__Owner on 21/01/2004 18:50 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
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