What a shame

[Twister_Ken]

Saw the latest PBO cover, raced to the 'too fat' Beneteau article which was busy warming the cockles with all the right noises about ballast ratios and stability and leeway and power in the rig. And when they came to test the thing, they did it in Plymouth Harbour in a Force Sweet Fanny Adams. For crying out loud. I hope nobody's proud of that piece of journalism. They'd be back on WI notes if I was editor.

 

[david_e]

ooohh and interesting thread at last! I'll be back later when I've got my copy from the newsagent.

 

[DoctorD]

Ken,

I know what you mean. A boat test should include conditions where you have to reef. But the plain fact is that those type of boats are incredibly cheap and most people who have them do not do serious offshore passages which is fine - it's their money. But it is very worrying that PBO did not get a stability curve from them (just like Legend it looks like Benetau are not proud of some of their stability curves). Also PBO made the point that they do not consider this boat a serious offshore cruiser but fine for coastal/channel stuff in ok conditions.

I guess the issue at hand is that it is easy getting caught out in the Channel or e.g. in Lyme Bay in strong winds with confused seas (which has happened to me) in a "bathtub" boat. One needs to be able to punch to windward in bad seas and strong winds. OR one needs to heave to to sort things out when the family is being sick and what started out as a nice sunny sail suddenly starts to look a little ominous.

I also worry about how structurally strong some of these boats are - but then again I used to race a Sunfast 36 and that was a lot tougher and stiffer than you might expect - but the racy versions of these boats are much better sailing vessels - i.e. taller rigs, deeper bulbed lead keels, beeter sails usually too etc.

Those linear galleys are bad news. Wonderful in harbour but useless at sea - and of course no sea berths or stowage in the saloon, despite a beam that would not disgrace a 40 foooter!

Graham

 

[kdf]

I do think Beneteau get this now. Looking at their lastest boats you see a move toward deeper keels (better upwind, righting moment), narrow waterlines (again better performance) and slightly more sail area than previous boats. Even the veteran 411 now comes with a standard keel of 2m and there are performance version with a taller mast - all designed to make the boat perform better upwind in a blow.

There are still issues with regard to the cabin design but that's another matter.

 

[robp]

I thought it was a very limp wristed pice of jounalism too. Probably though, not for the same reasons as you Ken. We've all followed reams of this discussion about form stability and affordable Continental/American boats. What's p---sed me off about virtually all these reviews of benjenbavs, is the condescending attitude. "Oh well, I can't actually find too much to criticise but we all know that we used to do it better". Yes, let's get a real review in a blow, not to endanger the reviewer and crew but to get some specific and tangible comments. Can't remember the exact wording but " there are many in use by owners who don't pay too much attention to GZ curves" What kind of comment is that? Hundreds and hundreds are what are in use. Yes I've got a Ben. It's not frightened me (too much) yet in top end of 7 bottom end of 8. Yes I would love a Najad or HR and maybe that's next but meanwhile I'd like to see a less soporific approach when these popular boats HAVE to be reviewed.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Yawn , snore !!!!

Sorry guys isn't this argument getting a little tired ? PBO's statement re stability curves might be right. There are literally hundreds of users of these boats out there and maybe they're not particularly bothered about it's stability curve. They probably know more about the sailing characteristics of their beloved boats than any of you can by poring over one particular characteristic. Ken , you sound as if you were hoping that the boat would review badly , then you could praise the sailing characteristics of your much loved Twister ? Rob , stop running your boat down . If it hears you it might bite you in the bum when you least expect it. I agree the layout isn't the best for offshore but there are hundreds of users that are happy with it. Who are we to argue with them ? I personally think that the layout isn't much use in harbour either as you can't really relax in the dinette area. Let them get on with enjoying it just as you do with your boats. The HR/Naiad/Malo brigade are welcome to them. They may have good stability thingies but when I test sailed 2 of them last year I found them about as exciting to helm as watching grass grow. Nice layout and build quality though. Each to his own I suppose , but the attitude coming through this , and other similar threads , is one of superiority and a little bit of like vultures picking at a corpse.

 

[robp]

Re: Yawn , snore !!!!

Bill, perhaps I sounded like I was on the defensive. When I said "didn't frighten me (too much)", I meant more than the weather/sea already. Boat was fine. My main point is that many, including much of the press, are always happy to dis the "popular" boats. Yes we all know where these boats stand (or float) in the scheme of things but most British reviews of them seem to carry back handed compliments. I've said it before on these BB's, we lost an auto industry thinking we knew best when we didn't. A little off Ken's subject I know but it would be interesting to hear other views on these reports.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Re: Yawn , snore !!!!

Not forgetting a motor cycle industry for the same reason. Us Brits ( I guess I can say that being a Scot ) , have an irritating habit of sniping at success. Since the foreign marine industry is hugely successful , maybe that's why it's sniped at so much.

 

[robp]

Re: That\'s the one! nm

~

 

[Guest]

;- )

I was still doing WI notes when I was a senior with 10 years' experience... Maybe I should ask why?

Thanks Ken once again for making me smile

"El manana es nuestro, companero..."

 

[jimmie]

Re: Yawn , snore !!!!

Agree completely, I bought a Beneteau because of the accomodation, great for the family. I've never had a problem with its sailing performance, I just free up a bit in larger seas to keep the speed going. I'm using it as a family cruising boat and have no aspirations to cross the Atlantic in it but I feel that it would cope with whatever the English Channel would chuck at it as long as I'm not too stupid.

 

[david_e]

In response to your point Ken, which as I read it, is about the test conditions. It would be good if the testers went out in a variety of conditions, how feasible that is I don't know. Certainly very rare you get prolonged periods of anything in this country so it should not be that difficult. It would certainly mean alot more to prospective purchasers.

Having said that they did try and give a fairly objective test by positioning the boat in its correct market and also getting expert and user opinion. From the reading gained about this particular boat, it is not one for me.

 

[cynthia]

If anyone wants to pay me for an account of sailing a Bav across Biscay to the Med - you only have to ask!(and wait until June.)
Sorry Ken, but still love the boat, light displacement (but not linear galley) and all!! Why, oh why do I keep apologising for making a good decision?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Agree, but what dodgy journalism

Bill,

I take your point about the topic having been done to death completely.

What got my goat was the standard of journalism. The journo spent three quarters of the time setting up the Benny so he could knock it down on sailing performance, and then turned his back when it came to assessing its sailing ability in the conditions he'd been maundering on about. He should have arranged to go back on a breezy day - after all breeze hasn't exactly been on ration in the last six months. And the editor should never have run with it until the writer had puked somewhere south of the Eddystone.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Why are you reading about new boats ? Not getting fed up with your old twister are you ?cheers bob t

Bob T

 

[colin_jones]

There is also a practical aspect.
It can take weeks to arrange a boat and a location and - sometimers the owner has to take a day off work to get there. The tester has to arraange his own schedule, photographer, chase boat etc.

Come the day, you hope for perfect weather and a variety of conditions, but if The Clerk of the Weather is not cooperative, you just have to go ahead and do the test whilst all the mechanisms are in plasce.

imperfect - but true

 

[billmacfarlane]

That's one of the points I was clumsily trying to make. You don't need to apologise for owning a certain type of boat. Just because someone pontificates about the stability curve of a ConNichRust , it doesn't give them some sort of moral superiority. Enjoy your boat and its good qualities of which there are plenty of.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Re: Snoozy reviews.

UK magazine boat reviews are a disgrace. And I cannot quite decide whether it's an excessive regard for the advertising revenue that so emaciates the commentary; or is it a continuing tradition of low quality journalism whose prime object is to flow some script around dashing under-way piccies.

Look at any review and watch the subjective and niggling (and largely useless) pickups on fiddles, head heights, swathes of meaningless comments such as "good" stowage - whatever that may mean etc etc. Much of the script is simply kept on a PC and jiggled around for each monthly edition. And the mags seem unwilling or unable to see it, and that we see it too!

Out here, we are quite able to count the number of winches, and heads, and berths and....so why bother to enumerate them?

What the experience of the reviwers could be helping us with is the technical commentary. What is the manufacturer trying to do with this model, what he's done that's different to earlier models, any perceived problems in maintaining the boat and its equipment, resale issues and holding value etc etc. One only has to look at the strings in these files to see what regular owners have to contend with and what they want to see reviewers barrel in on with seasoned comment. I refuse to believe the reviewers don't know all about these aspects. So why not share the insights with us?

It's time to put the snoozy reviews to bed for good!


PWG

 

[Guest]

Re: Yawn , snore !!!!

Bill, I take your point that one shouldn't be rude about others' boats so as to make them feel apologetic about them. Of course everyone likes to see their own type of boat praised, and nobody I hope actively wants to spoil others' enjoyment of their pride and joy.

BUT if people can't express their opinions for fear of offending others, then it is the boat market as a whole that suffers. Buyers of boats wouldn't have access to such a wide range of opinions. people are welcome to say that Contessas are let down by their accommodation. Personally I think they're wrong, and I think that the accommodation is great, but I can just look upon these others as loonies who don't really understand what good accommodation is all about. If Benjenbav owners are deep down satisfied with their boats, they should treat criticism of their boats in the same way.

You may be tired of hearing the "benjenbav" debate, but there is nothing to force you to read these threads - just skip them. I think that others find it interesting - I do!

The "good" news for those of us who dislike lightweight beamy boats is that there are hints of a move away from the extremes that were accepted as the norm a few years ago. I suspect that that may have something to do with the increasingly vocal criticism of them. That IMHO is a healthy movement. So why not pick at the corpse, if it does some good?

A number of people have commented that such boats are "good value". I guess that they mean that they are cheap for their volume. Not so cheap if measured, say, by weight and taking into account the typical specifications of the winches, spars, fittings, joinery etc. Some of the "budget" buys look rather expensive to me.

Another point I find difficult to buy is that they are suitable for coastal cruising. Some very nasty conditions are often met in the Channel for example, and it is in coastal cruising that one has the need to claw off lee shores etc. The waves often tend to be shorter and nastier in coastal waters, you get wind against tide etc.

Last time I sailed a Beneteau on the flat waters of the Orwell. I could not honestly say that the boat was even particularly suitable for inshore (river) sailing. She kept rounding up uncontrollably at every gust and had a terrible steering position stuck behind a big wheel from which you couldn't reach any of the sheets.

No apology for expressing my opinion!