Westerly Griffon engine sizes?

mickywillis

mickywillis

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Possibly looking at a Griffon this weekend for sale, to upgrade from our Pageant.
Boat ticks all the right boxes, but the only cause for concern is the engine size?
Current owner had a new Volvo D1-13 fitted a few years ago.
My concern is would this engine be is it a bit too small for a Griffon?
Our Pageant is fitted with a Yanmar 1GM10 and struggles against tides in Langstone Harbour sometimes.
The Griffon weighs in at probably 1200 Lbs more in weight and 3 ft longer, so would a 13HP be suitable?
It would be nice to have extra power in reserve when punching against tides. Looks like most Griffons from new were fitted with a 20HP Bukh engine so would I be better looking for a Griffon with that size of engine fitted or do you think the 13HP would be OK? What I don't want to do is buy a boat and then think I wish the engine had more in reserve!
BTW if the Griffons' owner is reading this, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to ensure that I spend my money wisely!
Thanks.
 
On the low side by today's standard, but the original was a Bukh 10 with a 20 as an option. It should achieve hull speed but may struggle a bit against wind and waves. Expect a 3 bladed prop of probably 13*10. Engine itself is a good bit of kit. Different league in refinement from a 1GM!
 
Our old mk1 Griffon was factory fitted with a MD7a 13hp from new. At 30 years old it was sufficient but not powerful, and had we kept the boat and upgraded the engine we would have been looking at a circa 20hp engine similar to that fitted to the mk2 Griffon (Bukh)
 
Chances are if the prop is well suited then 13hp will achieve hull speed in calm conditions at less than full revs. To be honest, 20hp would be nice for more forceful manouevring under any conditions, but if you need all that against a tide, it will be an uncomfortable ride. After all, you'd still be trying to achieve more than hull speed - but it could be useful against a headwind, though still uncomfortable.

Rob.
 
mickywillis said:
Possibly looking at a Griffon this weekend for sale, to upgrade from our Pageant.
Boat ticks all the right boxes, but the only cause for concern is the engine size?
Current owner had a new Volvo D1-13 fitted a few years ago.
My concern is would this engine be is it a bit too small for a Griffon?
Our Pageant is fitted with a Yanmar 1GM10 and struggles against tides in Langstone Harbour sometimes.
The Griffon weighs in at probably 1200 Lbs more in weight and 3 ft longer, so would a 13HP be suitable?
It would be nice to have extra power in reserve when punching against tides. Looks like most Griffons from new were fitted with a 20HP Bukh engine so would I be better looking for a Griffon with that size of engine fitted or do you think the 13HP would be OK? What I don't want to do is buy a boat and then think I wish the engine had more in reserve!
BTW if the Griffons' owner is reading this, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to ensure that I spend my money wisely!
Thanks.
Click to expand...
More info here http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/guides_5.php
 
Thanks for the information regarding the Griffon engine.
The D1-13 was supplied and installed as far as I know, by Volspec who advised the owner that it would be the suitable size engine for the hull. Anyone vouch for their knowledge and customer service regarding installation of replacement engines and advice?
Further reading indicates that Mk 1 Griffons, had the MD7A fitted (13HP) and the later Mk2's had the Bukh 20Hp installed.
The last Griffons (Club spec) were fitted with a Bukh 10Hp unit, so surely that would have been totally inadequate for the job?
The Griffon I am looking at is located on the River Orwell, so how do the tides there compare to say those in and around the Solent? If 13HP is adequate to cope with tides in and around Ipswich and the Orwell, would it be safe to assume that it would be OK to have in the Solent and in particular around Langstone Harbour?
If the D1-13 is up to the job, what are they like to work on and service? Are parts easily available and not too costly for service items?
Worse case scenario I guess would be to remove and sell the D1-13 and re-engine with a bigger motor/gearbox, what would the value of a low hours, 4 year old engine be do you think? If that did become an option, would a D1-20 fit into the same engine beds/mountings as the 13Hp one?
 
My Griffon Mk1 was fitted with an MD7a 13HP from new - I never felt under powered.
Have now replaced it with a Beta 20 as the old Volvo had had its day.. Having said that it came out of the boat still warm and sold I sold it to a bloke in Cyprus via e-bay for £160!..

Please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions regarding the Griffon. I have had mine for 15 years - perfect boat :-)
 
The D series engines are the latest models so spares are readily available, although it is highly unlikely you will need anything other than filters, impellers and possibly belts for years to come. They are based on Japanese made Perkins industrial engines which are widely used in industrial applications such as Caterpillar mini diggers. Whatever engine you fit you will not be able to exceed 6 knots and if you have 4 knots of tide against you then you can only make 2 knots!

As I said earlier, the extra power of a bigger engine really only comes into play against wind and seas when you may be able to maintain a slightly higher speed. The problem with engine power on boats of that age when new is that there was often only a limited choice - 10 or 20hp and the 10 was marginal, but the 20 OTT. You need to remember it is the propeller that moves the boat and the choice of engine is determined by the amount of power required to achieve hull speed with the appropriate prop. Modern engines are designed to run constantly at about 70% power which in the case of a D1 13 is about 2500rpm and with the right prop will give you a cruising speed of around 5 knots. Taking it up to 3000-3200 will give you the extra knot to hull speed.
 
We've got a 28' boat, a bit heavier, probably greater windage with a 13HP (Beta) engine. We've been sailing the Solent with it for the last 10 years including Langstone and Chi. I can't think of a single occasion when I've felt any more horses would have helped. As has been said, choice of prop is probably the important factor in ensuring you get the full benefit of all those horsepower.
 
Coming back to my comment the MD7a was "sufficient". It was 25 years old when we purchased the Griffon and over 30 when we sold it. It drove us into Poole Harbour against the worst of a spring tide (4+kt) maintaining a steady albeit slow speed and regularly into the Hamble against the tide. Being so old and a little smoky, I would guess the output had reduced to say 10hp, the engine fitted to the one you refer to is newer so could be a lot more efficient.

We contemplated replacing the engine and high on the list of of suppliers were Beta and Nanni both of which advised that the engine feet would fit.
 
Basically, "punching into a tide" is not relevant to power. You're trying to move the boat through the water; there is a maximum speed at which you can do that without power requirements going up very steeply - that's called "hull speed". The fact that the water itself is moving doesn't affect the speed at which you can move through the water; it only affects the speed over the ground - which you can't do a thing about. Your hull-speed is relative to the water and nothing else. So, if you have a hull-speed of 6 knots and are going into a 4 knot tide, you'll make 2 knots over the ground. More power might marginally increase your speed through the water - by a fraction of a knot, probably, at massively increased fuel consumption. More power will only marginally affect your speed through the water, and hence your ability to stem a tide.

Of course, if there a head sea, then more power might help you to push through the waves - but it will be an extremely uncomfortable ride. In fact, when motoring into a head-sea, I've been more inclined to reduce power than increase it, as I find my ability to endure the pitching and slamming is much less than the boat's!
 
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