Were you the PRAT - no thats too polite for you!

[gjgm]

Iwouldnt agree that the speed in chichester harbour is flouted alot. yes, there will be the occasion, but the harbour patrol are pretty good at keeping an eye out. Three prosecutions was it, last year?I have wondered if its the smaller powercraft that get undue attention rather than some of the large boats. And as you will know, alot of focus is now on wash rather than speed. As stated elsewhere, some boats have to be on the plane to get through the mouth wind over tide without getting swamped. -Harbour patrol seem to recognise that too. Nevertheless, there is no excuse for what you described with someone in something easily large enough to cope, to blast off where he did.

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[Rabbie]

I sail Chi just about every weekend and I can assure you it does not take a radar gun to see many, many speeders. Yes, we have an active harbour patrol (1xRIB!) but they are usually checking for harbour dues rather than enforcing speed limits and prosecuting for offences against the harbour regs. Pathetically inadequate really for 17 miles of navigable waterway. What all this boils down to basically is lack of good manners and thought for other persons afloat. If the whip was cracked a bit more and publicised then these yobbos might toe the line. (Thats enough cliches and ranting Rab!)

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[[2068]]

I know this won't be a popular point of view, but the fact is, that at the moment, vessels in de-restricted waters are NOT responsible for their wash.

This means, that if you venture out into the Solent in a Topper and try and cut behind a tugboat pushing a 6ft wake and disappear underneath, it is your fault. You can rant and rave, and call the tugboat driver a prat, but it is your responsibility as the skipper to ensure that your vessel is capable of coping with the conditions (waves, wakes, etc.) that are likely to be encountered on your passage.

My interpretation of this is that once past the 8knot limit, slower vessels should expect faster vessels to speed up, and not be too surprised when some wash is generated. If it ruins your day, you probably shouldn't be there in the first place, because the wind-over-tide confused waves that you will face in a couple of hours will be much worse than the wash from that planing powerboat. I can't count the number of times I have seen capsized Laser 800's being rescued by the safety boat before they were swept out of Chi harbour (next stop Cherbourg), because they underestimated the conditions.

On the other hand, I do try and give due consideration to other boaters whenever possible. e.g, when you have the whole of the Solent to play with, it doesn't make sense to pass at a distance of 50feet at 30kts. However, when things become more crowded, it isn't so easy. More than once I have had to come to a dead halt in Chi harbour, surrounded on all four sides by racing dinghies, who then berated me robustly for not "giving way". Giving way ?. How can you give way in four directions simultaneously ?


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[tcm]

hi dvinell, welcome etc.

Points taken. Itys a courtesy thing, not a regulation of course. I have sugested a "100m" rule in the past - passing other boats at speed no closer than 100m.

Inside a harbour - i accept the issue. More than once i have slowed and slowed - to the frustration of a dinghy hoping to pass behind.

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[jfm]

fairline 40 Azlec

Azlec is in this month's MBY, it's the p40 test boat

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[tcm]

Ah, i know this causes anger. But no need for anger - they just don't know the limits, or the results of their wash in flat water. So, perhaps have a word withim nicely, to say erm look, not criticising but see, it is rather dangerous, and hence there is actually a bit of a speed limit which unlike those on the road where cars don't cause a wash, powerboats do so etc etc etc. That would be a good first gambit.

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[Rabbie]

Re your first paragraph - the point of my original post was that Chichester Harbour IS a restricted area, subject to harbour regs/speed limit/colregs. There again, irrespective of whether the area is restricted or not, drivers of powerboats ARE responsible for their wash, if they aren't then who is?.
Your third paragraph amazes me.>If it (excessive powerboat wash)ruins your day you probably shouldn't be there in the first place<. Touch of arrogance there?. Wind over tide conditions are fairly predictable and are a natural feature. The hand that moves the throttles is the over-riding factor when it comes to good boatmanship in congested waters. Dinghy racing in areas of Chi Harbour is as much of a pain (probably even more) to sailing vessels as they are to powerboats, but this is hardly relative to the discussion. I constantly acknowledge considerate powerboaters when sailing, but when your child is thrown across the cabin and bruised it is impossible not to contain real anger against the PRAT at the helm who is responsible for excessive wash.
To powerboat readers of this forum - How often do you assess the effect of your wash on vessels you are about to pass in confined waters/close to moorings.?. Be honest!.

Incidentally - see post 'Sea sense'.

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[whisper]

I do it almost always, but then I'm almost perfect.
One of the main problems with speed limits is the fact that the inexperienced feel that as long as they keep below them then they are acting correctly. The wash situation - often at its worst at or near the allowed speed - is not thought about at all. A lot more publicity is necessary by the RYA, Harbour Authorities, magazines and us.

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well said

Well said. I've put this view in the past and been flamed for it. The fact is that if a boat is going to be put in danger by the wake of a motor cruiser, then it sure as hell is'nt going to survive the wake from a ferry, Red Jet, tug, harbourmaster's launch and any other commercial traffic out there. That does'nt mean that you should'nt try to minimise the effects of your wash on other craft, it just means that it is unrealistic to expect flat water in a crowded area like the Solent
Having said that, I think that 8 knots is too high a limit in Chi Harbour, even though its been recently reduced from 10 knots. A typical 40ft motor cruiser is approaching its max hull displacement speed at 8 knots and pushing as much wake at this speed as at 20knots. To my mind, 6 knots would be a much more realistic limit if wash reduction is the primary aim

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[MarcusMan]

Re: Well said

I'd second that 6 kts would be much more sensible - and you're lucky to get near it when the boys are our from HISC racing anyway!

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[[2068]]

>the point of my original post was that Chichester Harbour IS a restricted area, subject to harbour regs/speed limit/colregs.

True, I was making a general point. And I wasn't defending the actions of whoever caused the wake within the speed limit zone.

>There again, irrespective of whether the area is restricted or not, drivers of powerboats ARE responsible for their wash,

As far as I am aware, this is not the case. Can anyone point to any legislation or colregs that suggest otherwise ?

> if they aren't then who is?.

Errm, see above. It isn't that way round, you are responsible for the conditions you are likely to encounter. In the Solent, this includes wakes from ferries, Fairlines, tugs with multi-thousand hp engines that can generate a wake that can be deep enough to throw green water straight over the windscreen of an S24 (drip, splutch, cough, been there, done that...).

>it (excessive powerboat wash)ruins your day you probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Touch of arrogance there?.

Trying not to be too arrogant, but I have seen some strange things happening inshore of West Pole. Chi Harbour is not an easy harbour to enter and leave in a small craft in the wrong conditions, and I have seen many boats that were simply too small to cope safely. Forecast conditions are never perfect, a F3 can turn into a F5, which can whip up waves much larger than any powerboat wake. If a wake in the Solent is a serious danger to you, then you probably shouldn't be in the Solent.

>Dinghy racing in areas of Chi Harbour is ... this is hardly relative to the discussion.

True, just pointing out that wherever poss, I do try and give as much consideration to those around me, even in difficult circumstances. I boat to relax, not to encounter or provoke "waterway rage".


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[Rabbie]

>Errm, see above. It isn't that way round, you are responsible for the conditions you are likely to encounter. In the Solent, this includes wakes from ferries, Fairlines, tugs with multi-thousand hp engines that can generate a wake that can be deep enough to throw green water straight over the windscreen of an S24 (drip, splutch, cough, been there, done that...).<
Basically what we are discussing here is not 'out in the Solent', where we know what to expect,but in confined and constricted areas like Chi Harbour. You are surely not suggesting that as we take to the water for a day sail around the harbour, we 'are responsible for the conditions we are likely to encounter'. Obviously we take conditions as we come across them but we are not responsible for them. We make judgements and take allowance of tide, weather, natural hazards etc as we navigate along, but when PRATS behave like they do, are you suggesting its just our fault because we have gone sailing and this is just another hazard to avoid?. Sorry Dave, the ball is in the court of the man at the wheel to act responsibly, which I am sure many do. To blame boaters for being in the same sea area of PRATS is tantamount to saying, if you use a zebra crossing, its your fault if a speeding motorist hits you as you do so.

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[[2068]]

okay, missing words...

...you are responsible in that you should be prepared for and be able to cope with the conditions you are likely to encounter...

and yes, this applies to the harbour too.


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[duncan]

Re: speed - safety or wash

the confusion about the two seperate issues seems to cause a lot of problems - Poole has seperate areas for both with 6 knot/no wake areas (note they are defined that way so 5.9knots making a wake would be breaking the regulations) and 10 knots from a safety perspective recognising the dangers of crowded waters being used by a mix of craft.
The biggest problem I see happening, and hightened in very calm conditions, is craft travelling at 9-10knots in the main channels either (1) the wake is still significant 200 yds away and (2) many do not consider it their responsibility to 'keep clear' of other craft beyond the basic colregs.
I understand how no1 is an issue for people, dingy's and boats having a cup of tea on their trot getting very het up and can see both sides of the issue and try to ensure I am not making to much wash by avoiding 8-10 through the water which would cause it on my length hull (it also drinks fuel and loads the engine badly so it's good to avoid anyway!).
The second category, which in my book falls into the same as a vessel passing close in the open solent, is the one that needs educating to the effect that there is more to boat handling that the letter of the regulations.
I have to agree with tcm's post; where possible you should aim to pass over 100m from any vessel that may be affected by your wake - if it isn't possible you should try and minimise your wake - which doesn't always mean slow down!

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: speed - safety or wash

I agree about keeping as far away as possible from other vessels in open water in order to minimize wake effects and, in fact, 100m is not very far. However, you know what its like in the Solent. There you are trying to avoid going too close to a yottie on one side when the yottie on the other side suddenly decides that he needs to tack and there's a Red Jet bearing down on you as well. Its sometimes impossible to keep an adequate distance from everyone

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[duncan]

Re: speed - safety or wash

absolutely agree that you cannot always keep 100m, and you can't always avoid creating a wake that will have some impact on some craft somewhere - I just aim for the middle of the largest gap within reason like everyone else at times!

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