Weak Stainless Steel or Strong winds in SOF

[BartW]

My understanding of the switch location is that it has to be near enough to the winches to be always reachable by whoever is operating the line/winch, though obviously not close enough to interfere with the line.
The rationale is that if a person is maneuvering the line/winch, and someone else operates the switch, there's an obviously higher degree of risk.
Same goes for remote controls, btw: that's a no-no for these equipments.

agree,
but I was refering to what position is the best when holding the line, pushing the button by foot,
and then be ready to fix the rope on a cleat without loosing strength, all done by one person.

even while doing all alone, my son noticed he needs to be carefull, as he didn't put the cover back on the button, lost his balance, accidently pushed the button at the wrong moment, and then his finger was almost squeezed between the rope and the roller.

 

[jfm]

My understanding of the switch location is that it has to be near enough to the winches to be always reachable by whoever is operating the line/winch.

You could argue, and i do, that it should be further away. The winch operator will always place himself near the switch, and moving the switch away means the operator is away from the "nip" of the winch. On my boat I have the switches a considerable distance from the winch to encourage the operator to be away from the winch and have say 0.5m of rope between hands and winch. All imho

T'other thing is you MUST develop habit of closing the lid on the winch switch. One of my co-owners on my first Sq58 didn't do this and his wife placed her fingers in the winch nip while chatting then stood on the switch. It took a while for her to figure out what was happeneing by which time she had been wound around the winch (human arms do not have swivel joints...) . The line was tight becuase it was the stern winch and the boat was on a stern-to berth. The injury was quite gruesome and involved ambulance then skin grafts for over a year. I am crazy about flipping those lids shut, and separating the winch and the switch.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You could argue, and i do, that it should be further away. The winch operator will always place himself near the switch, and moving the switch away means the operator is away from the "nip" of the winch. On my boat I have the switches a considerable distance from the winch to encourage the operator to be away from the winch and have say 0.5m of rope between hands and winch. All imho

Yup I can understand the logic of that also because the winch will work better if there is a bit of tension on the loose end of the rope and thats difficult to achieve if the switch is right next to it. It also encourages 2 person operation of the winching procedure which IMHO is safer. Actually if this operation was in an industrial environment, the H&S nazis would be all over it like a rash demanding guards, stop buttons etc!

 

[jfm]

Yup I can understand the logic of that also because the winch will work better if there is a bit of tension on the loose end of the rope and thats difficult to achieve if the switch is right next to it. It also encourages 2 person operation of the winching procedure which IMHO is safer. Actually if this operation was in an industrial environment, the H&S nazis would be all over it like a rash demanding guards, stop buttons etc!

Tricky stuff this. I don't actually like 2-person operation, and also find it is of no advantage. The H+S issue is that you have risk of miscommunication. I prefer one person to be operating the winch+line+switch

I agree with your industrial environment comment. Winches, passerelles, bow/sternthrusters and engine room exposed driveshafts are capable of much injury

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Tricky stuff this. I don't actually like 2-person operation, and also find it is of no advantage. The H+S issue is that you have risk of miscommunication. I prefer one person to be operating the winch+line+switch

Actually H&S would consider 2 person operation safer. If 1 person gets caught in the winch, the other is there to see it and assist although I agree that miscommunication is an issue too

 

[BartW]

I don't actually like 2-person operation

agree,
also with anker winch I never allow two person operation,
the person operating the remote controll also does the manipulation of the winch or locking the chain,..

 

[MapisM]

Tricky stuff this.

Yep, 100% agreed.
Not that I disagree with all other comments, also from Mike and Bart, but at the end of the day I don't think that a completely safe way of handling any line onboard actually exist, 'cept maybe for the bell rope...

Fwiw, I always leave the winches thermal switch off, and never let anyone use them - no matter how experienced the guests are.
After all, I've yet to find any situation where it's necessary to use winches in a hurry: upon arrival, I tie a couple of doubled lines (those which I previously called "secondary"), tightening them just as much as feasible by hand, and that's it.
More than good enough to let guests go ashore if they wish, and connect the AC cable. I take care of the main and transverse lines (which I normally leave on the dock, in my home berth) afterwards, with no children around, dogs, whatever.
Coming to think of it, maybe it's not so clear what I meant by primary and secondary stern lines. Just to clarify, the black ones below with the spring compensators are my "primary" lines, whilst the white ones are the "secondary": much more convenient to handle upon arrival and departure, I leave them on also when moored just for sake of redundancy.
I guess this is one of those "each to their own" topics, anyway...

 

[AndieMac]

If you don't mind me saying M, IMO this is an impressive set-up.

Besides all the carefully located anti-chafe tubing and the colour coded precision of the lines etc., even the AC cable has been attached in a very thoughtful/clever manner around the stb. quarter, secondary line for easy/quick release.
I imagine you need a nice flexible AC cord to swing around that line and lay nicely though

 

[MapisM]

Glad of your appreciation, AM.
Yep, the AC cord is flexible enough. The fact that the boat doesn't need a huge ampage also helps in this respect.
Incidentally, there's another thought behind the above setup, which isn't obvious from the pic: the secondary (white) lines are slack, clearly because the primary ones with the compensators are tightened and are doing the actual job. The less obvious trick is that they are just slack enough to support the primary lines, when the wind is strong enough to compress the compensators almost completely. It happens very rarely, but when it does, it's nice to distribute the load on two separate lines and cleats!
Talk about anorak mooring...

 

[AndieMac]

Talk about anorak mooring...

I guess most folks wouldn't notice things like well presented mooring set-ups, but I think it enhances the overall presentation, especially with your Med. mooring arrangements.

I mean you wouldn't allow your well presented house to be seen with an untidy front garden

 

[BartW]

I guess most folks wouldn't notice things like well presented mooring set-ups, but I think it enhances the overall presentation, especially with your Med. mooring arrangements.

agree,
I'm quite geeky on that, and Elly alway's laughing with me

my only complain on Mapis 's setup is;
all my friends know that I don't want anything "Yellow" on my boat

these yellow rubber hoses would make me mad

 

[MapisM]

these yellow rubber hoses would make me mad

LOL, would you believe that I considered purchasing the following boat, some years ago...?

 

[vas]

LOL, would you believe that I considered purchasing the following boat, some years ago...?

Blimey MM, when did ice appeared in the Med?
You are looking ahead aren't you, you'll have to wait for global warming palava to end and then wait for the compulsory cooling to come to get this monster going

 

[BartW]

LOL, would you believe that I considered purchasing the following boat, some years ago...?

UUURGH

do you really fancy cruising in that part of the world ?
or the big oceans ?

looking through my sun glasses,
with some layers of white paint, could be a fine vessel.

 

[MapisM]

Haha, I knew she would have raised some eyebrows!
Actually, the above painting is the original one, specced by the first owner who built her for Antarctic cruising.
By the time I've seen her, she had already been painted white.
Shame really, I found her beautiful in red and yellow...
I'm sure that at least McDonald's would agree!

Anyway, nope, my plans weren't so extreme at that time.
I was thinking to keep her in the US for some years, spend some summer holidays cruising around there, and eventually bring her back to the Med.
As it happens, the whole idea was abandoned, for a number of reasons, but I still have a soft spot for steel battleship style trawlers...
...though I wouldn't go that route anymore nowadays, even if money was no object.

 

[AndieMac]

My word you gentlemen get distracted easily from the subject at hand

I was going to say something about the steel trawler, but it was already heading into extreme thread drift, so I won't .

 

[BartW]

Monday morning 5 december, 8hr, sunny 15°C in Cassis,
Breakfast in the cockpit

We were all wrong,
Shackle diameter was 14mm
But agree that even this size was not up for the job.

 

[MapisM]

We were all wrong,
Shackle diameter was 14mm
But agree that even this size was not up for the job.

Geez, 14mm!?! I would have NEVER even thought of using anything bigger.
Either it was defective, already stressed, whatever, or the peak load must vave been massive!
I don't have time right now, but it would be interesting to check the rated load of a 14mm shackle, and compare it to the one of the lines.
Incidentally, what's the size of the lines? If the shackle is 14mm, I probably underestimated also them, with my previous 22-24mm guess...

PS: lovely scenario for a morning breakfast, makes me envious now that my boat is sheltered...

 

[DAKA]

We were all wrong,

I'm not sure that is 100% accurate (yet).

It's not about size, it's about material characteristics.

Did you manage a close up photo of the end ? (cross section).

A photo taken in macro mode and blown up should give an indication if this is faulty material, fatigue failure from multiple stresses or a single snatch which I still consider to be the most likely.

If you still want to use decorative mooring gear then the simplest short term solution is to tie a 2 ft loose rope to both ends so when the stainless shackle breaks the rope holds the boat in situ until the marina staff replace with another glass shackle.

I think I might also use a short rope to go from the dock eyelet to the one adjacent not currently in use.

 

[DAKA]

This is the sort of photo that may help explain what has happened.
Note the tree like beaching marks before the final rupture.

I suspect your shackle will not show any beaching marks which would only be present if the shackle had failed due to repeated stress.

yellow arrows show direction of beaching.

Red circle shows single ductile rupture.