Wayfarer or small keelboat for small budget cruising?

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DanW

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Hello Everyone,

Was just hoping for some advice on whether a sailing dinghy like a Wayfarer would better suit my needs than my current small keelboat a Ruffian 23.
I've worked for a number of years on my current boat to take it up to spec.
But in some way its missing the fundamentals, no roller furling and no inboard. Maybe on a boat this size the hank on sails are worth the effort of rolling them up for good sail shape.
And I'm buying an extra long shaft outboard to stop cavitation on the stern.

My sailing ambitions are to explore the west coast of Ireland and Scotland and see the remote islands and maybe further to Scandinavia at some point.
But then when you have a small boat line mine with a keel how do you reliably get off and explore is there any good way to store a dinghy with the limited space?
I was looking at costs and to get mine up to par for such adventures I'd need to spend an additional £3000 for things like a dinghy, outboard for it, tiller pilot, chartplotter etc.

On the other hand if I bought a wayfarer they look like they can be had for that kind of price and as someone happy with camping maybe I could just bring camping gear and easily land on the shore as there would be no keel.
Also they would be easy to tow around the place.
For anyone familiar do they sail well and cover some ground?

At the moment the last thing I want to do is just buy a bigger boat as my budget would be limited - £15000 and after all the boat project work I couldn't face any more.
Also it is useful my boat comes on a trailor.
So I was just hoping for anyone that cruises on a small budget and small boats advice would be appreciated
 
I'm not sure how you'd manage to spend £3k on a dinghy, outboard, autopilot, and plotter.

You want a very small inflatable- Avon Redstart or Redcrest would be ideal. Under £100 on eBay.
2-3hp secondhand outboard, maybe £250. Or just row!! I cruised the west coast for ten years and never bothered with an outboard.
Tiller pilots are expensive, even secondhand, no getting around that. £400 for a TP10.
Plotter- not really necessary, if you have a phone or tablet and a waterproof case. £30 for Navionics which will run on several devices using a single subscription.

Re: the bigger question of big vs small boat, I've done quite a lot of Wayfarer sailing, I love them, but you need to be seriously hardy to do anything longer than day sails. When the rain comes on, I'd much rather be down below with a cuppa, letting the autopilot do its thing.
Maybe it's just me but I find very long dinghy sails pretty draining both mentally and physically. Constantly keeping the boat balanced, watching for wind shifts and gusts, never being able to let go of the tiller for more than a few seconds. It can be really good fun but not exactly relaxing.
 
The Ruffian 23 is a good boat, I would be inclined to keep it and do the upgrades wisely from a cost perspective. I own a Wayfarer, Mk2SD. They can be bought with a good trailer for around £1000. I have cruised with a Wayfarer in boisterous conditions, handled the waves and wind well, but they are not a Ruffian. Far more uncomfortable than the Ruffian.

Stick with the Ruffian, in my opinion.
 
I have cruised thousands of miles in a 23 footer, and such a boat (depending on model) is perfectly capable of doing the sort of cruising you aspire to, and getting to those places under its own steam rather than on a trailer (if you have the time available!).

You are right, in my view, to identify an inboard diesel, roller furling and tiller pilot as game changers, even though they are not 'essential'.

i am very sceptical about whether a Wayfarer or similar will meet your aspirations. You need to be a very particular sort of person to cruise extensively in such a boat. The boat itself (depending on design) may well be capable of open water voyaging, but it will very, very, very much impact on the sort of thing you can do, will want to do, and will actually do. It will be much tougher than camping; the gear you can carry will be very limited; you will have to be much more restricted by weather conditions for both comfort and safety. How will you feel about hanging about in harbour for days waiting for bad weather to clear, unable to get out of the rain and cold, or out of public view. Very few people would want to join your trips or visit you on such a boat, though you will probably meet more people as you will be much more dependent on the help of others.

I used to cruise a 16' 'dinghy-with-a-lid' centre-boarder, with a cuddy which meant I could sleep under cover, but had to put up the cockpit tent and put all any belongings in the cockpit to sleep, then when I got up I had to put all the gear and stored back in the cuddy and take down the cockpit tent to sail or cook. i had huge fun and lots of adventures in that boat, but it also really made me want a bigger, more commodious boat for more comfort and practicality, to encourage my partner and other friends to join me on trips, and to be able to realistically do cruises longer than a few days, and 24 hour plus journey legs (e.g. Cornwall to Brittany). I think something like a Leisure 17 would be a much better bet for cruising than a Wayfarer or similar if boats length was the key criterion, but for your sort of budget you can have a good 23 footer or larger.

In my opinion, a reliable inboard diesel makes all the difference to the practicality of extensive cruising. (I had previously cruised in a 22 footer with a 2 stroke petrol outboard, and that was a pain in terms of difficulty finding petrol in or near many harbours (and carrying it once you'd found it), being able to carry enough fuel aboard for longer journey legs, fuel consumption cost, prop coming out of the water in lively conditions, noise and fumes, and pitiful electric supply/charging capability.)

I carried an inflatable dinghy for use as a tender. My particular 23 footer had the benefit of a vast cockpit locker which readily held the deflated tender (and much else, and the main restriction was the size of the cockpit or foredeck for convenience inflating the tender. (I replace a larger tender with a smaller one because of that restriction, The smaller one was a bit more limited in rough/open water conditions, but much less of a pain to inflate/launch/deflate. I had an outboard for the tender, but eventually gave up carrying it around as I rarely used it. I found it overall less work to row than to faff about lifting the outboard on and off the yacht.

in my previous 22 footer I had originally towed a small rigid dinghy as a tender, but that was nuisance when berthing (especially single-handed), and a literal drag when underway. Eventually I had to cut the rigid dinghy adrift when it became swamped in rough conditions, and I couldn't recover it to bale it in those conditions without serious risk of injury to myself or damage to the yacht. I replaced it with an inflatable. I did but another rigid dinghy when i had an exposed mooring, as this was more practical for getting to and from the mooring, much better at coping with rough and windy conditions, much greater carrying capacity (both people and supplies), and avoided having to pump up and then deflate and fold the inflatable twice every time I went out in the yacht. I did, however leave the rigid dinghy behind on the mooring, and relied on the inflatable when on voyage.

Both my 23 footer and previous 22 footer had roller furling. Not having that would be a great disadvantage, in my view, both in terms of sailing handling/reefing, and avoiding the need to stow sails below, which would radically reduce the accommodation and bring water and salt below. Both had a tiller pilot, but keeping the battery charged to power it was a perennial problem on the 22 footer with an outboard

Given your budget, i would not go for a Wayfarer or similar. Neither would I buy a long shaft outboard for your current boat. I'd either spend the budget getting an inboard diesel, roller reefing and tiller pilot installed in your current boat (if you like it enough) or, more likely, buy a nice boat that already has those things and sell your current one.
 
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LittleSister said:
I have cruised thousands of miles in a 23 footer, and such a boat (depending on model) is perfectly capable of doing the sort of cruising you aspire to, and getting to those places under its own steam rather than on a trailer (if you have the time available!).

You are right, in my view, to identify an inboard diesel, roller furling and tiller pilot as game changers, even though they are not 'essential'.

i am very sceptical about whether a Wayfarer or similar will meet your aspirations. You need to be a very particular sort of person to cruise extensively in such a boat. The boat itself (depending on design) may well be capable of open water voyaging, but it will very, very, very much impact on the sort of thing you can do, will want to do, and will actually do. It will be much tougher than camping; the gear you can carry will be very limited; you will have to be much more restricted by weather conditions for both comfort and safety. How will you feel about hanging about in harbour for days waiting for bad weather to clear, unable to get out of the rain and cold, or out of public view. Very few people would want to join your trips or visit you on such a boat, though you will probably meet more people as you will be much more dependent on the help of others.

I used to cruise a 16' 'dinghy-with-a-lid' centre-boarder, with a cuddy which meant I could sleep under cover, but had to put up the cockpit tent and put all any belongings in the cockpit to sleep, then when I got up I had to put all the gear and stored back in the cuddy and take down the cockpit tent to sail or cook. i had huge fun and lots of adventures in that boat, but it also really made me want a bigger, more commodious boat for more comfort and practicality, to encourage my partner and other friends to join me on trips, and to be able to realistically do cruises longer than a few days, and 24 hour plus journey legs (e.g. Cornwall to Brittany). I think something like a Leisure 17 would be a much better bet for cruising than a Wayfarer or similar if boats length was the key criterion, but for your sort of budget you can have a good 23 footer or larger.

In my opinion, a reliable inboard diesel makes all the difference to the practicality of extensive cruising. (I had previously cruised in a 22 footer with a 2 stroke petrol outboard, and that was a pain in terms of difficulty finding petrol in or near many harbours (and carrying it once you'd found it), being able to carry enough fuel aboard for longer journey legs, fuel consumption cost, prop coming out of the water in lively conditions, noise and fumes, and pitiful electric supply/charging capability.)

I carried an inflatable dinghy for use as a tender. My particular 23 footer had the benefit of a vast cockpit locker which readily held the deflated tender (and much else, and the main restriction was the size of the cockpit or foredeck for convenience inflating the tender. (I replace a larger tender with a smaller one because of that restriction, The smaller one was a bit more limited in rough/open water conditions, but much less of a pain to inflate/launch/deflate. I had an outboard for the tender, but eventually gave up carrying it around as I rarely used it. I found it overall less work to row than to faff about lifting the outboard on and off the yacht.

in my previous 22 footer I had originally towed a small rigid dinghy as a tender, but that was nuisance when berthing (especially single-handed), and a literal drag when underway. Eventually I had to cut the rigid dinghy adrift when it became swamped in rough conditions, and I couldn't recover it to bale it in those conditions without serious risk of injury to myself or damage to the yacht. I replaced it with an inflatable. I did but another rigid dinghy when i had an exposed mooring, as this was more practical for getting to and from the mooring, much better at coping with rough and windy conditions, much greater carrying capacity (both people and supplies), and avoided having to pump up and then deflate and fold the inflatable twice every time I went out in the yacht. I did, however leave the rigid dinghy behind on the mooring, and relied on the inflatable when on voyage.

Both my 23 footer and previous 23 footer had roller furling. Not having those would be a great disadvantage, in my view, both in terms of sailing handling/reefing, and avoiding the need to stow sails below, which would radically reduce the accommodation and bring water and salt below.

Given your budget, i would not go for a Wayfarer or similar. Neither would I buy a long shaft outboard for your current boat. I'd either spend the budget getting an inboard diesel, roller reefing and tiller pilot installed in your current boat (if you like it enough) or, more likely, buy a nice boat that already has those things and sell your current one.
Click to expand...
What was the boat?
 
Wansworth said:
What was the boat?
Click to expand...

The 23 footer is a Samphire 23 - shoal draft long-keeler, diesel inboard. I still own it - 17 years now - despite having bought larger a few years back (why I still have it is a long painful story!) but will be selling it very shortly. I've sailed that boat pretty much everywhere from Devon to the Norfolk Broads, and Boulogne to Roscoff, numerous channel crossing incl. Devon to Brittany and back, Channel Islands twice, etc. etc. Would have sailed further afield but for work etc. time constraints.

The 22 footer was a Hurley 22 - long fin keel, 8hp 2-stroke twin o/b. Cruised extensively south Devon and Cornwall, Scilly Isles, Brittany.

The 16 footer (actually 16'3") dinghy-with-a-lid was a Shipmate Dayboat (less commodious but much better looking version of the more numerous Shipmate Senior), 4hp 2-stroke o/b. Cruised extensively S. Devon. (It now lives on a lake somewhere in Germany!)

Unmentioned in the previous post, I also previously owned a 17'3" Express Pirate bilge-keeler, 4hp? 2-stroke o/b. Cruised extensively S. Devon, Dorset and Solent. (Previous owner had kept it in S. France for holiday use for some time.)

The last two were always the smallest boat in any anchorage I stayed in! :D
 
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LittleSister said:
The 23 footer is a Samphire 23 - shoal draft long-keeler, diesel inboard. I still own it - 17 years now - despite having bought larger a few years back (why I still have it is a long painful story!) but will be selling it very shortly. I've sailed that boat pretty much everywhere from Devon to the Norfolk Broads, and Boulogne to Roscoff, numerous channel crossing incl. Devon to Brittany and back, Channel Islands twice, etc. etc. Would have sailed further afield but for work etc. time constraints.

The 22 footer was a Hurley 22 - long fin keel, 8hp 2-stroke twin o/b. Cruised extensively south Devon and Cornwall, Scilly Isles, Brittany.

The 16 footer (actually 16'3") dinghy-with-a-lid was a Shipmate Dayboat (less commodious but much better looking version of the more numerous Shipmate Senior), 4hp 2-stroke o/b. Cruised extensively S. Devon.

Unmentioned in the previous post, I also previously owned a 17'3" Express Pirate bilge-keeler, 4hp? 2-stroke o/b. Cruised extensively S. Devon, Dorset and Solent.

The last two were always the smallest boat in any anchorage I stayed in! :D
Click to expand...
Great,Years ag I looked at both those boats ended up with an Albin vega
 
Wansworth said:
No it was a related comment for delectation and your approbation🙂
Click to expand...

I've told you before I am all in favour of Benteau Barouders. I like them look of them. (How are you and/or Mrs. W at pole dancing, by the way? ;) )

The links you give for that brokerage never work for me, but I can now usually track down what you are looking at by the boat model and find one in N. Spain.

Is this the one in Luarca? Is that different from the one you were looking at previously? It would look a lot more appealing without all the current owners' toot cluttering it up (and before your own toot clutters it up!). It has the benefit of companionway doors, rather than washboards, which I like (easier access and more practical in port especially - not so good if you're out in the ultimate storm). Older style windows - tick. Upright cabin with meaningful handholds - tick. Inboard diesel - tick. Long keel - you're man of style and taste (and bravery) aren't you? Foresail not r/r - deduct points, but perhaps not a deal breaker (price up buying one (+ UV strip for sail), and negotiate on lack of it?). No separate heads compartment (I think some (later?) versions had one) - head is, I think, between V berth fwd. - deduct points. Stanchion(s) leaning in and obstructing side deck - is it bent (needing straightening), or should be cranked style stanchion (i.e. needing bending) , or is stanchion base damaged?

Overall rather scruffy, but perhaps not beyond redemption or bearability? (I did once make the mistake of buying an absolutely gleaming, stunningly smart boat - looked almost new, not decades old - and discovered that, appealing though that was initially, it can only go downhill from there with serious use and my preference for sailing over housework/DIY.) That poor presentation will make selling it harder for them, so may make price more negotiable if that is not already fully reflected in the asking price, which I think is already lower than some you've been pondering. Could be a lot of fun for the money.
 
A half way house between the ruffian and a wayfarer would be a Lysander 17, two proper berths inside.
Bilge keel 18inch draft. Just a foot longer than a Wayfarer.
I've lived in the Hebrides and sailed along the Minch, from South Uist along the Uists and Benbecula to Skye n a Lysander.
A couple of years back a couple of Lysander's sailed from Oban via Various places in the inner Hebrides to the outer Hebrides.
There are fibreglass hulled Lysander's around which is much better from the maintenance point of view.
 
Reading your original question and noting your comments on the West Coast of Ireland and remote Scottish islands leads me to say that is going to be very exciting, if not risky, in a Wayfarer. Good though they are. The simplicity and ease of beaching a Wayfarer or similar size lift keeler will be over balanced by the challenges of big seas, strong wind or adverse tide. I used to sail an Eagle 525 (Skipper 17) which was great fun but really not an offshore boat. Conversely we cruised 5 up in a Westerly 22 (hank on sails) with 10 gallons of petrol around the Inner and occasionally Outer Hebrides for several years without issue. Drying out ability is useful.

Find an outboard solution and if singlehanded, a tiller pilot too. Furling is good. A small inflatable you can deck stow and rows OK (+1 for old Avons). We towed a Redcrest everywhere, slowly! It did go airborne sometimes but always made it.

I think the boat doesn't matter as long as its sound. You'll spend a lot of time and money sorting another out and it would only be worth it if you wanted something much larger, heavier or with twin or lifting keels.
 
If you have a wayfarer & stop at a tidal location to camp then the tide goes out there is no way you will be able to drag it down a beach to re launch it. If you moor it offshore you will need a dinghy. Dinghies do not need outboards. There is a good chance your wayfarer will.
 
For a campable day boat I’d go for something like a Hawk 20, with less ‘stuff’ than a full cruiser. There’s one on our pontoon that looks very handy, but I’ve not sailed one.
 
LittleSister said:
I've told you before I am all in favour of Benteau Barouders. I like them look of them. (How are you and/or Mrs. W at pole dancing, by the way? ;) )

The links you give for that brokerage never work for me, but I can now usually track down what you are looking at by the boat model and find one in N. Spain.

Is this the one in Luarca? Is that different from the one you were looking at previously? It would look a lot more appealing without all the current owners' toot cluttering it up (and before your own toot clutters it up!). It has the benefit of companionway doors, rather than washboards, which I like (easier access and more practical in port especially - not so good if you're out in the ultimate storm). Older style windows - tick. Upright cabin with meaningful handholds - tick. Inboard diesel - tick. Long keel - you're man of style and taste (and bravery) aren't you? Foresail not r/r - deduct points, but perhaps not a deal breaker (price up buying one (+ UV strip for sail), and negotiate on lack of it?). No separate heads compartment (I think some (later?) versions had one) - head is, I think, between V berth fwd. - deduct points. Stanchion(s) leaning in and obstructing side deck - is it bent (needing straightening), or should be cranked style stanchion (i.e. needing bending) , or is stanchion base damaged?

Overall rather scruffy, but perhaps not beyond redemption or bearability? (I did once make the mistake of buying an absolutely gleaming, stunningly smart boat - looked almost new, not decades old - and discovered that, appealing though that was initially, it can only go downhill from there with serious use and my preference for sailing over housework/DIY.) That poor presentation will make selling it harder for them, so may make price more negotiable if that is not already fully reflected in the asking price, which I think is already lower than some you've been pondering. Could be a lot of fun for the money.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your comments,it has a certain air about it and it’s two masted so obviously some mods have been made and the engine is smaller.Luarca is about two hours from home,somewhere we have never been so it will be an outing with a purpose🙂………side decks could be a hurdle😂
 
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If you have 15k available then there are plenty of well sorted proper boats available that don't need fettling. Sell the Ruffian and buy the boat you want and need and crack on. Somebody else might even want to come with you.
You don't say how old you are but long range sailing in Wayfarers is only for impossibly broke students or beardy weirdies.
 
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