Waste of recuers time

[prv]

How would you establish "sound mind" then ... actions are sluggish, capsize frequency is high, destination is down-wind but up-tide and they're not able to head that way without capsizing, you can see they are cold and tired - not the best conditions for getting rational thought from anyone ...

Being cold, tired and stubborn is not the same thing as having a mental illness severe enough to require "sectioning", which I think is a reasonable standard to work on. If someone is compos enough that a doctor may not forcibly treat them "for their own good", what makes you think you can?

Pete

 

[chanelyacht]

Some of the scenarios here begin to highlight the dilemma we face when coordinating rescue.

You may well have reported the incident, calmly and undramatically - someone else may have reported in completely differently and given the impression it is life or death. We cannot grade one reporter over another (although in practice experience does let you do some mental filtering) so we need an accredited, dependable opinion from on scene, and usually for this we'll turn to a "declared asset" - i.e. one of our own coast rescue teams, a lifeboat (RNLI or indie), or a statutory service.

I can't answer for how the LB crews approach people, or what they say - they certainly have no authority from us to "detain" a casualty or compel a tow, unless we have invoked the Sec of State's Rep procedure - and unless you're a merchant vessel about to spill oil everywhere, that's unlikely.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem sometimes with what the public might see as an over the top approach, but equally we as watch managers have surprisingly little control over the protocols we work to. You also have to understand that such is the culture within MCA these days, especially since the proposals, that a lot of people's main concern is avoiding the under response that will cost you your pension. We also have an issue with less and less of any watch having actually worked at sea - now some who have come up from the CWA rank are exceptionally good, and sail / boat etc themselves - others don't, and these days we don't have the time or allowance to get people out on LBs and ships as much as we used to, so don't have as much maritime knowledge as we might like.

None of that, sadly, is in the control of the guys you deal with in the MRCCs.

The bottom line is, though, when threads like this start, or newspapers start screaming "waste of resources", I'd rather have those than threads / headlines about the dead ones we missed or responded to inadequately. One thing I've never seen though is any article defining how the resource was "wasted" - a common example is people scream about the cost of using a helicopter, forgetting that in a very large number of cases it was on exercise in the area and offered to take the call - perhaps they should have stayed 10 miles away from the incident lowering their winchman for exercise rather than responding?

 

[prv]

we need an accredited, dependable opinion from on scene, and usually for this we'll turn to a "declared asset"

Yep - can't blame the CG for wanting to get someone they know on scene to have a look. When I'm listening to the radio on a busy Solent weekend I always think how hard it must be to build up a solid picture of what's actually going on from all the VHF traffic.

The problem is when the people sent to have a look see a boat on its side and someone in the water, instead of thinking "it's an RS800, they do that, they'll be up again in a minute" instead go into "OMG! Casualty!!" mode. After all, in training every situation they meet is (presumably) a casualty one.

Pete

 

[fireball]

Being cold, tired and stubborn is not the same thing as having a mental illness severe enough to require "sectioning", which I think is a reasonable standard to work on. If someone is compos enough that a doctor may not forcibly treat them "for their own good", what makes you think you can?

Pete

So - you're standing off this potential casualty (PC) - watching the situation deteriorate rapidly - weather front coming in which is only going to make it worse - with a dissenting adult who doesn't want you to remove them from the situation that may well end up with more serious injury (and expense) - from the cold = hypothermia and/or boom = head injury.
Being a volunteer crew in the rescue boat the PC is (imho) being selfish as from the refusal of assistance when in obvious (to the volunteer crew) need (s)he is preventing the volunteer crew returning to base or from attending other water users who may be in need of assistance.

Physically there is no restraint on the volunteer crew - however, perhaps there is an element of 'Duty of Care' once they have assessed the situation from the relative comfort of their vessel.

 

[prv]

So - you're standing off this potential casualty (PC) - watching the situation deteriorate rapidly - weather front coming in which is only going to make it worse - with a dissenting adult who doesn't want you to remove them from the situation that may well end up with more serious injury (and expense) - from the cold = hypothermia and/or boom = head injury.
Being a volunteer crew in the rescue boat the PC is (imho) being selfish as from the refusal of assistance when in obvious (to the volunteer crew) need (s)he is preventing the volunteer crew returning to base or from attending other water users who may be in need of assistance.

Absolutely - it's a bummer of a situation and not one I want to be in.

Read something like Blood, Sweat and Tea for how ambulance crews find themselves in analogous situations all the time. Fortunately, the sailor who is genuinely in trouble but doesn't want help is much less common than the injured pisshead telling his rescuers to **** off.

Pete

 

[chanelyacht]

Yep - can't blame the CG for wanting to get someone they know on scene to have a look. When I'm listening to the radio on a busy Solent weekend I always think how hard it must be to build up a solid picture of what's actually going on from all the VHF traffic.

The problem is when the people sent to have a look see a boat on its side and someone in the water, instead of thinking "it's an RS800, they do that, they'll be up again in a minute" instead go into "OMG! Casualty!!" mode. After all, in training every situation they meet is (presumably) a casualty one.

Pete

I think it's pretty rare for our own teams to do that, given that they're shoreline observers and would get some peer pressure not to drag the rest of the team out for nothing! I can understand that if we task a water based asset, the adrenaline of a shout is already running by the time they get on scene. Some may be a little more forceful than others for the good reason of experience telling them that if they leave the person concerned to their own devices, they'll be back out there two hours later when the "casualty" finally admits they've reached their limits - not an uncommon situation, especially with windsurfers, etc.

As for getting a solid picture, dare I say this is where local knowledge is crucial. I know the busy patches on my area well, and can quickly visualise where the trouble spots are likely to be each day. I'll often drive past a few of our slipways on the way into work so I know how the potential sea traffic is building up, or what's going on.

Still, it's OK, the new call centre would have google maps - which, I note, at least one newspaper and an MP (!) seemed to think is streamed live...

 

[Ubergeekian]

Fair enough. Journalists, eh?

On the Sun?

 

[Searush]

Going back to the origninal incident (remember it?) the paper said,

"After managing to turn the craft the right way (up) one of the sailors had to remain in the water to act as a rudder for the yacht, risking hyperthermia."

WTF is that about? How does leaving someone in the water help the situation? No wonder they couldn't make progress! One of the two concerned is described as experienced, yet even in Scouts we were encouraged to practice steering without a rudder. Even dragging a leg over the side would be better as it is almost imossible to tow a swimmer in the water with a dinghy unless it is blowing a houley.

It is also highly recommended by all safety guides to carry at least one paddle & a baler, tied on. The paddle can be used over the aft quarter as a steerboard very effectively, even a baler could be dragged in the water to help steer. Or you can lower the sails & use paddle & baler to get home without a rudder. With limited steering it should still be easy to get into shallow water & wade back to base towing a dinghy - I have done that in the past.

BTW the Dee estuary has big tides & is very exposed to the NW, but I don't know the conditions on the day.

 

[fireball]

It is also highly recommended by all safety guides to carry at least one paddle & a baler, tied on.

Er - can't remember the last time I had a paddle in my racing dinghy ... didn't have one in the Fireball ... nor the ISO - certainly not in the RS800 or the RS400 either ... !!
But then - when racing we do have a rescue boat out there so can easily nick one of theirs or just get a tow ..
I have had the rudder downhaul fail on me a couple of times - but not lost the whole lot so able to get myself back ... just sail a bit slower !!

Years ago I could sail without rudder - I'm sure I could if I try again - but it's not an easy task when sailing a saucer!!

 

[Seajet]

Going back to the origninal incident (remember it?) the paper said,


WTF is that about? How does leaving someone in the water help the situation? No wonder they couldn't make progress! One of the two concerned is described as experienced, yet even in Scouts we were encouraged to practice steering without a rudder. Even dragging a leg over the side would be better as it is almost imossible to tow a swimmer in the water with a dinghy unless it is blowing a houley.

It is also highly recommended by all safety guides to carry at least one paddle & a baler, tied on. The paddle can be used over the aft quarter as a steerboard very effectively, even a baler could be dragged in the water to help steer. Or you can lower the sails & use paddle & baler to get home without a rudder. With limited steering it should still be easy to get into shallow water & wade back to base towing a dinghy - I have done that in the past.

BTW the Dee estuary has big tides & is very exposed to the NW, but I don't know the conditions on the day.

SeaRush is completely right, and when I raced things like Fireballs, Scorpions & Ospreys in the winter, it was in the rules to have a paddle, bailer, capsize clip to prevent rudders falling off, also a buoyancy tank test, or one was disqualified;

If these rules don't exist any more, they should do, and sailing without a rudder should be practised, some clubs make a fun competition out of it and similar larks like close quarters 'battles' with super soaker water pistols ( in warm weather ) to engender seamanship.

 

[fireball]

SeaRush is completely right, and when I raced things like Fireballs, Scorpions & Ospreys in the winter, it was in the rules to have a paddle, bailer, capsize clip to prevent rudders falling off, also a buoyancy tank test, or one was disqualified;

If these rules don't exist any more, they should do

Why? It's not appropriate for all boats/situations ...
In nearly 30 years of dinghy racing I can't remember the last time I needed a paddle ... and a bailer is pointless in a self draining cockpit - although you've quoted boats that are not self draining ... When I sailed lasers and shipped too much water it was often quicker just to capsize to empty out !! ISO's and RS800s - the water just pours out the back - and in the RS400 if you're shipping water in (like I did last night) then you're going fast enough for the built in selfbailer to operate - like mine did all last night - don't think we dropped below 6 knots ...

'Capsize Clip' for rudders I think is standard - unless there is another mech for preventing loss of rudder ..

 

[Searush]

Fine if you're racing with safety boats around, but these guys seem to have been pottering in open water - a fairly exposed & potentially dangerous situation.

There is a big lake for dinghies there where they can potter without any safety kit (B Aids are compulsory, but nowt else is required) it has a wall & a walk way all around & is not over 4' -5' deep. However, you'd be daft to go out in the open sea (the estuary is about 8-10 miles across & completely exposed from N to W) without a paddle & anchor - a baler may depend on hull design, modern sealed hull sit-on self draining styles make bailers pointless. TBH I carried a compass as well.

This is NOT the Solent & tides are 25-33'.

 

[maxi77]

This pair was a laser and a topper, neither of which are required to have a paddle, though some do carry a thing called a praddle though I never did, just another thing to get in the way. Mind you both the laser and topper can be propelled quite effectively lying on the foredeck and doing a sort of crawl stroke so not having a paddle is not a real problem.

In this case just think of the headlines had there actually been a casualty and the CG had not called out rescue services. Most of those suggesting that sending out the rescue services was a waste of resources would be claiming they should have been sent. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Of course we don't know quite waht the rudder problem was, but more than once in my more interesting laser capsizes I have broken the tiller, and that can make steering impossble even if the rudder is intact.

 

[Searush]

This pair was a laser and a topper, neither of which are required to have a paddle, though some do carry a thing called a praddle though I never did, just another thing to get in the way. Mind you both the laser and topper can be propelled quite effectively lying on the foredeck and doing a sort of crawl stroke so not having a paddle is not a real problem.

In this case just think of the headlines had there actually been a casualty and the CG had not called out rescue services. Most of those suggesting that sending out the rescue services was a waste of resources would be claiming they should have been sent. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Of course we don't know quite waht the rudder problem was, but more than once in my more interesting laser capsizes I have broken the tiller, and that can make steering impossble even if the rudder is intact.

So you would recommend putting your crew in the water to act as "steering"? I doubt it! Anyway, toppers & lasers are 1 man boats, this incident involved 2 people, one described as "experienced".

 

[fireball]

So you would recommend putting your crew in the water to act as "steering"? I doubt it! Anyway, toppers & lasers are 1 man boats, this incident involved 2 people, one described as "experienced".

Not unusual to have 2 up in these boats when messing around - 2 up is perfectly ok if the tiller extension has broken - but bugger all good if the rudder has gone! Single sails are far more tricky to sail rudderless ...

Would I put a crew in the water - depends - on conditions and how far I had to go ...

 

[bikedaft]

legal definition of capacity

to assess if a "casualty" (or otherwise!) has capacity, they must,

•Understand information given to them
•Retain that information long enough to be able to make the decision
•Weigh up the information available to make the decision
•Communicate their decision.

if someone has capacity and you drag them into a rib then its assault. whether you get charged depends on whether they complain or not tho.

(fairly different form sectioning someone under mental health act)

clearly hypothermia can incapacitate you mentally, which is the main concern.

but if you have capacity you are allowed to make odd/bizarre decisions (at least legally) which on rare occasions can be a bit frustrating for everyone around who can see what is going to happen next.

 

[fireball]

Fine if you're racing with safety boats around, but these guys seem to have been pottering in open water - a fairly exposed & potentially dangerous situation.

There is a big lake for dinghies there where they can potter without any safety kit (B Aids are compulsory, but nowt else is required) it has a wall & a walk way all around & is not over 4' -5' deep. However, you'd be daft to go out in the open sea (the estuary is about 8-10 miles across & completely exposed from N to W) without a paddle & anchor - a baler may depend on hull design, modern sealed hull sit-on self draining styles make bailers pointless. TBH I carried a compass as well.

This is NOT the Solent & tides are 25-33'.

Well - I suppose it does depend on circumstances - my dinghy racing is all done in harbour where you're never that far from shore anyway ... heck you could swim it if needed!
Anchor, Paddle, Bailer in a topper or laser for pottering? - paddle (or rather praddle) maybe - but almost certainly not an anchor as the gear required to be an effective anchor would be almost prohibitive for stowage.
Compass - open water - yes - easily put one in a buoyancy aid ..

 

[fireball]

Fortunately the situations I would have to deal with are race competitors - what the RO says goes ... so the rescue crew can instruct someone to retire or to abandon their boat for later recovery - I've only had to do that once, to a junior who failed to recover a capsize on the first attempt at which point I called it, got him aboard and tied his laser to the nearest mooring - on the short trip back to the club he got the onset of hypothermia - ok - it was a winter race and the water was freezing - he and a lot of others got caught out by a squall coming through - I had to get to the others in the fleet - no chance of waiting around ...

 

[maxi77]

So you would recommend putting your crew in the water to act as "steering"? I doubt it! Anyway, toppers & lasers are 1 man boats, this incident involved 2 people, one described as "experienced".

Yes there were two people and when I checked TWO boats a topper and a laser.

No not the way I would have done it, but hey ho it worked they got ashore on their own steam according to the report.

 

[Duffer]

Not unusual to have 2 up in these boats when messing around - 2 up is perfectly ok if the tiller extension has broken - but bugger all good if the rudder has gone! Single sails are far more tricky to sail rudderless ...

Would I put a crew in the water - depends - on conditions and how far I had to go ...

Last Autumn I was approaching St Michael's Mount to anchor off. I saw a dinghy which I thought was messing about close to where I wanted to anchor. As I got closer I saw he was paddling but not making anything against the fresh offshore breeze. It turned out his rudder had broken off and he asked for help as he wasn't able to sail either. I wasn't able to tow him in as it is too shallow but waited for the CG to get the HM to tow him in with his launch. The moral is that even a dinghy the right way up can be in difficulty - even if they do have a paddle...