Wannabee classic boat owner seeks advice on caulking hull

[papapete67]

About 20 years ago, I was told by a friend about a Folkboat that was up for sale. It was an insurance write-off, but another friend (also the best local chippie) told me she was well worth buying and we could have her repaired and sailing in no time... However it was not be. I was sort of reliant on my dad/employer for funds at the time, and he was completely against the idea of a wooden boat. Too much work he said. Now there were another two things I wanted at the time that he was completely against. A motorbike and an ear-ring. 20 years on there has been a succession of bikes and I wear my ear-ring with pride, but a boat I have yet to get.
So it sort of seems like karma that I should now be offered (at a very good price) the chance to own a King's Cruiser 28, designed by the same designer, as a family cruiser upgrade to the Folkboat...

I haven't made my mind up yet, (or persuaded the wife...) but my heart yearns for this lovely little boat. She(or he, as the boat is german flagged and the owner always thought of the boat as a he...) has been out of the water for a few years and there are some gaps in between the planks but in general the condition is much better than I expected.

Now I am looking for some advice on caulking. My chippie friend says to just do a lot of filling with the local putty, that is made by the greek boatbuilders here, and not to use any cotton. I should add the seams are not very wide. Then put her in the water and let her soak to tighten up.
I have also been asking about Sikaflex. The Sika people reccommend the Sika wood primer and the Sikaflex 291. Apparently it is used a lot in the Athens boatyards with great success.

Before all the traditionalists have a go at me, I should say that I am one of those people who believe in using the best material, no matter if it is new or old, as long as it doesn't affect the "classic" look. Let's say I think that if Sikaflex where available in the 1900s boatbuilders would have used it...

So I invite your opinions. I would just like to ask that they be based on experience and not sentiment...

Thank you!

 

[johnlilley]

I think the advice you have already been given Is absolutely sound, with regard to filling the seams with polyurethane sealant this type of sealant although flexible is still quite hard and would be as restricting as cotton with the possibility of causing the same problems that over caulking with cotton would cause and, perhaps, if you absolutely insisted on using this type of sealant it would be better to apply it once the vessel has taken up, this of course requires vessel to be lifted and allowed to dry for a short period. Ultimately, you are probably better off putting her in the water, she should take up major planking within 24/36 hours, the larger sections of timber such as Keelson and deadwoods can take another eight or nine days but, the major leaks should have stopped within 12 hours. If you still have serious leakage after seven days then it would be a question of identifying the areas, lifting and sorting those areas out. The soft putty used in the first instance should go some way toward limiting the catastrophic primary leaks until the planking has taken up.
All the above is assuming that the original cotton caulking is still there & has not rotted of course.

Regards

John Lilley

 

[papapete67]

Thanks for your answer John. I spoke to my friend the carpenter again today, and he insists it will be cheaper and better to go the traditional way. It is possible my keen-ness to use the Sika may have something to do I am the local dealer for it...haha! My friend Dean reccommends i use red lead putty which is not available here, however he has some and i will replace it for him at a later date.
I think i will go the traditional way after all. If anything sika can be pretty messy too. I did actually speak to someone who did a wooden lifeboat years ago in sika. As the wood took up the sealant squeezed out (over a couple of years) and the next time he hauled her out, he just sanded off the bumps and painted. He has been happy with the actual sealing, having had no leaks whatsoever.

I;ll keep you posted. looks like i am going to go for it!

Thanks
Peter

 

[papapete67]

I would like to give a better description of the boat's condition and get your opinions on some questions I have.

As regards the bottom.
All the wood is painted with the local orange coloured red lead known as minio. This job was done at least a couple of years ago. Some of the seams, are open, the worst ones having a gap of maybe 3-4mm maximum. These may run to a total of 4-5 meters of "gap" on each side.

Topsides (upper hull)
Almost no cracks/gaps at all. The hull looks as if it has been filled, undercoated and sanded.

Stern
A few gaps around the edges where the hulls planks butt up against the stern.

My questions.
1. Should I remove all existing paint/filler and start from scratch?
2. Do I need to remove the read lead underneath?
3. As regards primers to use after, would you consider the conventional grey wood primer, offered by most companies, like Primocon, P1 Nautix or Blake's Yacht primer, to be as good or better than red lead?
I might add that here in Greece where things are mighty relaxed as regards health and safety rules... red lead primer is still widely available...
4. Finally what would be the best way to remove all of this? Dry scraping? Paint remover? or heatgun and scraper as they do locally?

I look forward to your answers...

Peter

 

[oldfrank]

Sikaflex or similar would be fine. If the boat's been out of the water in a hot climate for some time and facilities permit, I might just put her in for a while and see how she takes up. Hang her off a crane with a couple of pumps on board and put bucket loads of sawdust under the hull with a long pole. You will be surprised at the extent your 'problem' goes away - the gaps really don't sound enormous. Beware - sawdust only plugs the gaps until you move the boat. You'll know your problem after two or three days. OF

 

[papapete67]

Back again...
I've bought the boat!

i have another question for the experts. The laid deck is a bit tired. In our climates down here, teak decks also tend to get rather hot. Would it be possible to seal te deck off and cover it with Treadmaster for example? I see that Treadmaster reccomend that one doesnt butt up the edges of two sheets. This would mean there would have to be a gap. Is this possible? Is it a good idea? How would I seal the deck off? epoxy?
Also I like the look of treadmaster on a boat. It does have a "classic"feel to it...

look forward to your answers...

 

[EastCoastChris]

I've bought the boat!

Congratulations

As regards your question, I'd have reservations about sticking something like treadmaster onto a wooden deck. It could cause future problems by trapping water between the wood and the treadmaster which might remain hidden until serious. When you say "seal the deck off" do you mean using glassfibre and epoxy, it would at least need something like that.

I think I'd opt either for teak, or painted epoxy and glassfibre.

Chris

 

[andygc]

Sikaflex or similar would be fine.

That really does not seem a good idea in a boat that has dried out. The Sikaflex will not squeeze out anywhere near as much as putty will when the planks take up and will create very high loads between the planks and the frames. My own boat was out of the water three years before I owned her and when she went back in she took up more than she had been before. The force exerted by the planks growing slightly wider than when fitted (a major repair some 10 years before) was sufficient to break eight 1-1/4 inch oak frames. If we had filled the gaps with Sikaflex or had hardened up the caulking cotton we'd have had a disaster.

Now if she is out of the water over the whole winter she opens up some seams and leaks like a sieve for about 18 hours after she goes back. After that there's a few weeps for a few days, and then she's as dry as a bone.

I suspect that John Lilley knows exactly what he is talking about.

 

[papapete67]

Thanks for your answers!
@Andy. Yes I did mean seal the deck in that way, but I realise it is not really possible. I won't say i don't believe in completely sealing wood in epoxy as a good solution, but it has to be exactly that, completely sealed. As there is no way i can do that, I will go the traditional way. I have been advised to leave the deck until last and after repairing the caulking to just go over it quickly with a sander. Then just try and keep it in good condition! I have also tried the antifreeze spraying for wet rot etc (I have some in corners of the cockpit lockers) I will be trying a product called Boracoll later to stop further rot etc.

@EastCoastChris
Don't worry I have already decided to go the traditional way of red lead putty and already boght some. Again i have been told by a very knowledgeable (and good!) friend that my boat is not the kind to caulk with cotton or Sikaflex. Once she takes up she will be fine. There are only about 1-2mm gaps in places.

A couple of rather disconcerting discoveries were two mounds of what looked like coarse sawdust, one in a cockpit locker and one in the front starboard cockpit corner. Further investigation showed that I have two carpenter bee nests! One has damaged the aft cockpit locker support (basically gone right through most of its length. The other one has damaged the bulkhead next to the companionway. I will be taking apart and investigating further...

I'll keep updating as I go along... and maybe add some pics along the way...