Wagner Hydraulic steering.

[zeehond]

We have a Van de Stadt Seal, built in a Yard in Holland in steel. She has the usual spade rudder moved by an enormous pair of Wagner hydraulic cylinders, presumably a balanced pair, which are driven by the Wagner pump at the helm. My problem is that there seems to be no way of bleeding the system, at least nothing that is obvious like a bleed nipple as was the case on my last boat fitted with Vetus single cylinder hydraulic steering. Whenever I ask any one's advice, admittedly no-one claims expertise in the matter, they say they have not seen a two-ram installation like ours. Can any one help with the bleeding problem?

 

[seacat]

I have some instructions for bleeding a Wagner system. Have you a fax number - it would be easier to fax you. I have a Wagner pump system to which I renewed the cylinder with a Vetus cylinder - the Wagner one was shot - because it was a lot cheaper. Wagner (a Canadian company) also exist in the UK at Wagner Engineering, Dormans House, Dormans Park, East Grinstead Sussex RH19 2LY. The tel used to be 01342 87517 but it seems not to have enough digits. I'm not sure how you do discrete exchange of e-mail addresses on this forum, otherwise as an alternative I could scan the purging instructions and send it as an attachment. Regards,

 

[zeehond]

Thanks for the contact. My email is langleyviola1@hotmail.com. If you can get me this info for bleeding the system I'd be very grateful. Has your boat got twin cylainders?

 

[enzojeanb]

Hello

sorry did new to this forum and did not know how to reach you other that replying on this thread.

I have a wagner pump on my sailboat. My problem is even when them bypass valve is set to LOCK the rudder still moves (creep they call it I think) It creeps fairly quickly enoughmthat it defeats my hydrovane self steering. Finally, when I used the raymarine autopilot, running a small hydraulic pump to,move the ram to steer the boat, the wheel at the helm spins around. continously.

I’ve been chasing this problem since,I,bought the boat 5years ago. The,system has been bled many times and I am sure there’s no air in it. I don’t have a clue what to do next.

Any thoughts?

thx

 

[rogerthebodger]

Yes my thoughts are that you have an issue with the lock valves. The square block on the back of the pump where the main hydraulic pipes connect.

https://www.helmsmansystems.com/downloads/Parts Manual.pdf

This is a parts list and diagrams of various pumps . diagrams from page 25 onwards.

The page 34 shows details of the bigger lock valve. You need to identify which pump you have. Is it round or square is a good start

 

[enzojeanb]

Hi

the pump I have is round, Wagner model N175-750. I dont think there are locked valves in the system. Hoses runs to bybass valve , set to lock, the to Ts where branch off to cyclinder connected to rudder and autopilot pump

any more thoughts?

thx

 

[rogerthebodger]

Hi

the pump I have is round, Wagner model N175-750. I dont think there are locked valves in the system. Hoses runs to bybass valve , set to lock, the to Ts where branch off to cyclinder connected to rudder and autopilot pump

any more thoughts?

thx

The N175-750 seems to refer to the cylinder. From my info the pump is a 700 series A1-W

The lock valve is normally on the rear of the pump not on the cylinder

I think this is the pump

'http://www.wagnerengineering.ca/category/Helm-Pumps/Legacy/700_Series_701-702.html

Item 15 is the lock valve.

One way to check is to try to move the rudder using the rudder. If thew rudder moves and the wheel turns there is no lock valve.

The autopilot pump also needs a set of lock valves.

I had duel hydraulic steering and autopilot and all 3 pumps have lock valves.

One steering pump is a wagner, the other one is a SeaStar Capilano like this

My autopilot pump is sumrad

This pic shows a steering pump with lock valves in the top pic and the same pump without lock valves botton pic

 

[enzojeanb]

Hi

The pump you showed is not the one I have, the only number I have for it is the one i sent. I also wrote the wagner people in Vancouver, they say that if you have a bypass valve like I do, the bypass acts as a lock valve, so whenusing a bypass valve you don’t need lock valves. He suggest looking to see if the bypass is not got dirt or something prevent the lock position on the valve to close the circuit

thoughts?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Hi

The pump you showed is not the one I have, the only number I have for it is the one i sent. I also wrote the wagner people in Vancouver, they say that if you have a bypass valve like I do, the bypass acts as a lock valve, so whenusing a bypass valve you don’t need lock valves. He suggest looking to see if the bypass is not got dirt or something prevent the lock position on the valve to close the circuit

thoughts?

Makes no sense to me bypass valve and a lock valve are 2 different thinks.

Can you post a picture of your bypass valve.

Vetus do a duel non return valve which is some times called a lock valve

https://www.vetus.com/en/valvula-anti-retorno-5910.html

Vetus say

" If dual station steering is required, then it is necessary to install this block, or to use two steering pumps with built in non-return valves (type HTPR). "

A bypass valve looks like this

https://www.vetus-shop.com/vetus-bypass-valve-for-10mm-tubing-p-81.html

This looks like a wagner lock valve which does the same as the vetus one, but I cannot see and bypass function.

Ok here is a combined lock valve and bypass valve in one. I have never used one of these as I think its much more flexible to have the lock valves on the pumps themselves. This method allows you to add as many steering stations/autopilot pumps as you wish.

I have 2 steering stations and one autopilot pump with only the lock valves on each pump.

My thoughts are to take it apart and clean it out. If any dirt is found you need to strip the whole system to clean it all out including all the pipes to remove ALL the dirt otherwise it could happen again.

Ensure you use new and clean oil when you refill.

 

[PCUK]

As the query is 13 years old I reckon he has fixed it or changed the boat!

 

[rogerthebodger]

As the query is 13 years old I reckon he has fixed it or changed the boat!

The original query was reopened in posting #4 on the 15/12/2018 so I an answering the current issues not the origional

 

[enzojeanb]

Hi

thanks again for all the advice. Wagner guy says that when the bypass vallve is in the lock position it acts as lock valve. For ky system he suggests adding one lock valve at the autopilot pump