Voyaging post-brexit with one spouse having an EU passport

[Sharky34]

Only one spouse?

 

[Graham376]

But surely, from a cruising perspective, my spouse then doesn't need FoM? I (EU citizen) 'move' to France and my TCN spouse accompanies me. After 89 days, I (EU citizen) 'move' to Belgium and my TCN spouse accompanies me. After 89 days, I (EU citizen) 'move' to the Netherlands and my TCN spouse accompanies me. And so on! No?

Edited to add: 'Move' as in clause 1 of Article 6, not actual residency.

I wrote to the EU enquiry centre many moons ago, asking whether because I was married to a citizen and had permanent residence myself if we can move around EU. The answer was that my wife as a citizen could but I was still bound by the 90/180 rule outside Portugal. If you can find any loopholes then good luck but remember everyone is likely to be logged in and out and transgressors likely to be fined and banned.

 

[RAI]

I believe the rules for a non EU citizen to obtain residency in an EU country is country specific; unlike the FoM rules for EU citizens.

 

[Mistroma]

I must admit that I've not really delved into the issue of moving around from country to country as it isn't important to me yet.

Union citizens within the meaning of Article 20(1) of the Treaty, and exercising his or her right to free movement to whom Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States ( 15 ) applies;

I've always understood the above to mean "EU citizen" not "EU resident" and nothing mentioned about "usual or current country of residence". That should mean that my wife can travel with me anywhere in the EU and stay as long as we like as long as we both comply with local laws regarding a stay longer than 90 days.

I have said before that I intend to register my presence in Greece for more than 90 days and my wife will do the same. I will use the normal form for an EU citizen and she will use a slightly different version as the spouse of an EU citizen. I should have registered in previous year as this rule hasn't just suddenly appeared. However, nobody ever bothered and I don't expect my Swedish or Irish friends will bother next year either. That might change when electronic systems get going properly across the EU.

I'll register because my wife's UK passport will probably attract closer scrutiny and I'll be drawn into it as well.

I have seen questions in previous years where people intend to drive around the EU for 4 months or more and the answer has always been "no problem if one is an EU citizen and proof of marriage is available". However, issues are well documented and usually arise from local officials lack of understanding of the law.

Many of the problems seem to arise when a spouse requires a Visa.

e.g. A spouse might require a visa in some cases (e.g. they have a Cameroon passport) and have problems obtaining one. EU law is perfectly clear and non-EU family members have the right to obtain a visa quickly and for free.

Moreover, non-EU family members who hold permanent residence cards pursuant to Article 20 of Directive 2004/38 are, paradoxically, sometimes required to obtain entry visas. As explained in section 4.4 below, this is the result of a restrictive interpretation of Article 5(2) of the Directive by some Member States.

I 'm assuming that my wife won't require a visa for Greece next year and really haven't bothered about such issues.

One thing that came up did relate to my wife's marriage certificate.

In order to recognise a non-EU marriage certificate, the immigration authorities or consulates often require that, besides being apostilled and officially translated, the certificate must be:

• Registered in the country of the EU citizens’ nationality; and/or
• Recent, not > 3 months old.

I'm working on the assumption that a combination of our UK passports, original marriage certificate and my Irish passport will be fine. We should get into Greece without a problem, unless they ask for details of our return flight. I'll see what happens when we both register to stay longer than 90 days. Most problems seem to happen when dealing with immigration or consulate staff. I'm hoping that the local police will be less likely to dig around for a problem. I think their main aim is to make certain I have plenty of money to spend in Greece and that isn't an issue. I can even make our finances appear that my wife has more funds than I have. I only need to show them multiple investment accounts in her name and her income. I'd just show my income and they'd be more likely to want to keep her and throw me out.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I have a good friend who is American and was married to a German. She has residency in Germany but was only allowed 90/180 days in the remaining Schengen area outside Germany. Her husband had full FoM in the EU as a citizen of an EU country - this never caused them any problems with holidays and travel because they never left Germany for more than 90 days in 180 - this is the purpose of the family reunion visa.

Marriage to an EU citizen effectively entitles you to residence in the same country as your spouse providing you don't get excluded for something like being a member of a terrorist organisation. The purpose is for family unity - hence the family reunion visa - it is not intended to bestow EU FoM on any 3rd county spouse moving to the EU.

EU countries do not want other EU countries letting in 3rd country immigrants (those on visas who don't have citizenship) who are then free to settle in a country other than the one that let them in.

If the EU citizen exercises their right to free movement, and changes residence to another EU country, then the spouse can apply again for a family reunion visa in the new country and follow them - the process costs money and can take up to 12 weeks to process. It requires proof that the EU citizen is registered as resident in their new country - so following the rules of however the local government administers their residency system. (E.g. - in Germany this means registering with the Gemeinde where you live, the tax office and sorting out medical cover.)

An EU country will not issue a family reunion visa to the spouse of an EU citizen who is not resident in their country - proof of residency of the EU spouse is required as part of the application.

 

[syvictoria]

I have a good friend who is American and was married to a German. She has residency in Germany but was only allowed 90/180 days in the remaining Schengen area outside Germany. Her husband had full FoM in the EU as a citizen of an EU country - this never caused them any problems with holidays and travel because they never left Germany for more than 90 days in 180 - this is the purpose of the family reunion visa.

Marriage to an EU citizen effectively entitles you to residence in the same country as your spouse providing you don't get excluded for something like being a member of a terrorist organisation. The purpose is for family unity - hence the family reunion visa - it is not intended to bestow EU FoM on any 3rd county spouse moving to the EU.

EU countries do not want other EU countries letting in 3rd country immigrants (those on visas who don't have citizenship) who are then free to settle in a country other than the one that let them in.

If the EU citizen exercises their right to free movement, and changes residence to another EU country, then the spouse can apply again for a family reunion visa in the new country and follow them - the process costs money and can take up to 12 weeks to process. It requires proof that the EU citizen is registered as resident in their new country - so following the rules of however the local government administers their residency system. (E.g. - in Germany this means registering with the Gemeinde where you live, the tax office and sorting out medical cover.)

An EU country will not issue a family reunion visa to the spouse of an EU citizen who is not resident in their country - proof of residency of the EU spouse is required as part of the application.

I don't disagree with anything that you've said. However, I am not suggested that either the EU-citizen or the TCN spouse make any attempt to obtain residency, a family reunion visa, or similar. I am only suggesting that I think Article 6 permits them both (travelling together) to spend up to 90 days in any member state. As Article 6 appears to have no other time constraints (unlike the rolling Schengen 90/180), I don't see why the same couple couldn't then move to another member state and spend another 90 days, again without obtaining residency, a family reunion visa, or similar.

Browsing the likes of the Lonely Planet and other 'travel' forums, Article 6 is quoted frequently in discussions relating to long stay tourism when the desire is to travel to multiple countries. The problem is that the person who asked the question invariably never comes back to the thread to report back as to how their trip went and whether or not they experienced any issues!

 

[Sharky34]

I have a good friend who is American and was married to a German. She has residency in Germany but was only allowed 90/180 days in the remaining Schengen area outside Germany. Her husband had full FoM in the EU as a citizen of an EU country - this never caused them any problems with holidays and travel because they never left Germany for more than 90 days in 180 - this is the purpose of the family reunion visa.

Marriage to an EU citizen effectively entitles you to residence in the same country as your spouse providing you don't get excluded for something like being a member of a terrorist organisation. The purpose is for family unity - hence the family reunion visa - it is not intended to bestow EU FoM on any 3rd county spouse moving to the EU.

EU countries do not want other EU countries letting in 3rd country immigrants (those on visas who don't have citizenship) who are then free to settle in a country other than the one that let them in.

If the EU citizen exercises their right to free movement, and changes residence to another EU country, then the spouse can apply again for a family reunion visa in the new country and follow them - the process costs money and can take up to 12 weeks to process. It requires proof that the EU citizen is registered as resident in their new country - so following the rules of however the local government administers their residency system. (E.g. - in Germany this means registering with the Gemeinde where you live, the tax office and sorting out medical cover.)

An EU country will not issue a family reunion visa to the spouse of an EU citizen who is not resident in their country - proof of residency of the EU spouse is required as part of the application.

If they have FoM, how do any officials know they are outside Germany, do they still have to show documentation & who asks for it?

 

[syvictoria]

If they have FoM, how do any officials know they are outside Germany, do they still have to show documentation & who asks for it?

Presumably, yes, they would need to show their EU passport if asked, much as we (British) would do now (pre-Brexit).

 

[Sharky34]

Presumably, yes, they would need to show their EU passport if asked, much as we (British) would do now (pre-Brexit).

"If asked", but no obligation to do so then, if moving across open borders.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

"If asked", but no obligation to do so then, if moving across open borders.

No checks, as long as you move by car or any transport that doesn't require an ID check or a passport/ID number when booking or embarking.

Any public transport that crosses internal EU borders usually requires ID - Flixbus out of Munich for example, or an internal flight.

Then there are the one-offs where a country puts up border checks - most recently during the migrant crisis, or Corona where you are checked at internal borders to ensure you are following the rules for the country you are entering - if it's a man standing at the side of the road visually inspecting, probably OK, if your passport gets scanned, then it will be a full check against all connected DBs - including ETIAS in future.

Will be interesting to see if they link ETIAS into the toll systems to track vehicles - currently difficult to prove who is actually in the car though - but watch this space.

It will all get far more difficult when the full version of ETIAS kicks in in the next few years, as all carriers will be required to log travel details with ETIAS. Private transport will most likely not be affected but the possibility for misunderstandings and lengthy explanations with proof is very real - had a UK friend detained in San Francisco Airport for a visa violation when the US went fully electronic, as the EU is about to - the system had failed to pick up on an older exit over the Canadian border - so he was required to provide evidence of the exit, he refused to submit his UK passport to the US authorities to have the Canadian stamp officially recognised and loaded into their system - so now he gets delayed by around an hour by immigration every time he enters the US and has to always carry his old passport with the Canadian stamp with him.

The risk of getting caught flouting the 90/180 in the worst case could be a ban from the Schengen area - so each person must decide for themselves how risk averse they want to be.

Good old Pritti though, making good on her promise of "ending FoM once and for all"

 

[Graham376]

In order to recognise a non-EU marriage certificate, the immigration authorities or consulates often require that, besides being apostilled and officially translated, the certificate must be:

• Registered in the country of the EU citizens’ nationality; and/or
• Recent, not > 3 months old.

Paperwork can be a real problem. We were married in S Africa and many years later had to obtain a new translated and apostilled marriage certificate . New official copies of other documents also needed as Portuguese don't recognise anything over IIRC 6 months. Some UK issued documents needed to be legalised. It doesn't help that wife's citizenship is still in maiden name but she travels on UK passport in married name and doesn't have residence in that name. I find it strange that my permanent residence card notes me as Son Of and quotes my parent's names. All good fun

 

[Sharky34]

No checks, as long as you move by car or any transport that doesn't require an ID check or a passport/ID number when booking or embarking.

Any public transport that crosses internal EU borders usually requires ID - Flixbus out of Munich for example, or an internal flight.

Then there are the one-offs where a country puts up border checks - most recently during the migrant crisis, or Corona where you are checked at internal borders to ensure you are following the rules for the country you are entering - if it's a man standing at the side of the road visually inspecting, probably OK, if your passport gets scanned, then it will be a full check against all connected DBs - including ETIAS in future.

Will be interesting to see if they link ETIAS into the toll systems to track vehicles - currently difficult to prove who is actually in the car though - but watch this space.

It will all get far more difficult when the full version of ETIAS kicks in in the next few years, as all carriers will be required to log travel details with ETIAS. Private transport will most likely not be affected but the possibility for misunderstandings and lengthy explanations with proof is very real - had a UK friend detained in San Francisco Airport for a visa violation when the US went fully electronic, as the EU is about to - the system had failed to pick up on an older exit over the Canadian border - so he was required to provide evidence of the exit, he refused to submit his UK passport to the US authorities to have the Canadian stamp officially recognised and loaded into their system - so now he gets delayed by around an hour by immigration every time he enters the US and has to always carry his old passport with the Canadian stamp with him.

The risk of getting caught flouting the 90/180 in the worst case could be a ban from the Schengen area - so each person must decide for themselves how risk averse they want to be.

Good old Pritti though, making good on her promise of "ending FoM once and for all"

But are these border checks by transportation syatems, simply for ID, or to police foreign nationals?

 

[syvictoria]

But are these border checks by transportation syatems, simply for ID, or to police foreign nationals?

In the case of a journey with the likes of FlixBus, I doubt that it's for anything more than ID at present (in fact, I don't recall even providing passport data on booking or boarding the bus on our recent trip, although passports were required and scanned by officials at Calais). However, as has been said here before, ETIAS could easily change that, as the infrastructure will then be in place to easily make checks. Regretfully there will also by then be the potential of an additional 60 million+ close neighbours flouting the system!

 

[Sharky34]

In the case of a journey with the likes of FlixBus, I doubt that it's for anything more than ID at present (in fact, I don't recall even providing passport data on booking or boarding the bus on our recent trip, although passports were required and scanned by officials at Calais). However, as has been said here before, ETIAS could easily change that, as the infrastructure will then be in place to easily make checks. Regretfully there will also by then be the potential of an additional 60 million+ close neighbours flouting the system!

Before any remainers jump in, 'we didn't have a problem flouting the system in 1944'.

 

[Graham376]

According to a couple of newspapers -

British holidaymakers will be barred from the European Union from 1 January under current Covid-19 safety restrictions, with the EU commission indicating there will be no exemption for the UK.

Only a handful of countries with low coronavirus rates are exempt from rules that prohibit nonessential visitors from outside the EU and European Economic Area (EEA) – with the UK included only until the end of the Brexit transition period.

 

[RupertW]

According to a couple of newspapers -

British holidaymakers will be barred from the European Union from 1 January under current Covid-19 safety restrictions, with the EU commission indicating there will be no exemption for the UK.

Only a handful of countries with low coronavirus rates are exempt from rules that prohibit nonessential visitors from outside the EU and European Economic Area (EEA) – with the UK included only until the end of the Brexit transition period.

Yes, read this today and I see that as part of the possible no-deal scenarios and pressure from the EU as the parts of the deal signed up for so far cover movement under Schengen visa had not previously suggested that. But yes, my trip out the boat in the Canaries on 2nd January is not looking hopeful now, unless I trust Boris to put country needs over party squabbles.

 

[Alicatt]

Yeah, in the same situation, Wife is Belgian and I'm Scottish, going through the family reunification process just now in Belgium. We were married in Scotland in 2015 as the Belgian marriage rules are a lot more strict than they are in Scotland, lots of paperwork and all translated between English and Flemish and vice versa.
Gemeente "lost" our paper work some time between registering our marriage in Belgium and me seeking reunification last July, lucky I had kept copies of all paperwork, emails etc. and when we showed them to the gemeente they suddenly found all the registration etc. on their system.
Now there is going to be a change in the rules here and I wont find out about it until next week, also I won't get my ID card until second half of January sometime.
Now attempting to get my driving licence changed, medical booked for 22nd and hoping they give me all my entitlements especially as we want to tow a heavy boat under the C1E class on my licence, as it is at the moment I tow plant and machinery for my son.

This year was going to be our "Grand Tour" year and head off first north then east and then south going to Montenegro via Denmark then back up and down the east of Italy and then back up the west to France and to Spain along the Pyrenees and back up the French coast and back to Belgium. It was relatively simple to plan out but now I would have to get a whole raft of visas etc.
Really browned off by the whole thing and my contempt for those that voted for voted for brexit and johnson knows no bounds.
?