VOR yacht aground!!

[prv]

Good point Pete, still needed a wider berth

Well, obviously they needed to miss it, not hit it. But the problem apparently was not that they plotted a route that was safe on the chart but dangerous in reality, due to mismatch between the two. There was no significant mismatch.

Either they a) plotted a safe route but then didn't follow it, or they b) plotted a route which was dangerous both on the chart and in reality (or, I guess, they c) didn't plot any route at all and just pointed the bow in roughly the right direction, but that seems unlikely for such a boat). Post 16 suggests that it was option b) - the planned route was dangerous on the chart, but because detail disappears from vector charts when you zoom out, the danger wasn't immediately visible when viewing the whole route.

This is one reason I like to use a paper chart as well as a plotter - the human cartographer can make more intelligent decisions about what to include on a given chart (like, for instance, a mid-ocean reef on a likely passage route) whereas a plotter just has a fairly crude algorithm based on zoom level.

Pete

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Well, obviously they needed to miss it, not hit it. But the problem apparently was not that they plotted a route that was safe on the chart but dangerous in reality, due to mismatch between the two. There was no significant mismatch.

Either they a) plotted a safe route but then didn't follow it, or they b) plotted a route which was dangerous both on the chart and in reality (or, I guess, they c) didn't plot any route at all and just pointed the bow in roughly the right direction, but that seems unlikely for such a boat). Post 16 suggests that it was option b) - the planned route was dangerous on the chart, but because detail disappears from vector charts when you zoom out, the danger wasn't immediately visible when viewing the whole route.

This is one reason I like to use a paper chart as well as a plotter - the human cartographer can make more intelligent decisions about what to include on a given chart (like, for instance, a mid-ocean reef on a likely passage route) whereas a plotter just has a fairly crude algorithm based on zoom level.

Pete

Agree entirely. But for the sake of completeness, many modern plotters and tablet/laptop software packages will warn when a plotted route goes through shallow water.... a useful feature when using vector charts.

 

[prv]

many modern plotters and tablet/laptop software packages will warn when a plotted route goes through shallow water.... a useful feature when using vector charts.

Thanks - my main plotter is a Raymarine C70 so not exactly modern, and I wasn't aware of that feature. The sort of thing that in theory shouldn't be necessary, but in practice provide a useful backstop.

Does it typically allow any width for the route? That is, if the planned line passes within a few metres of a steep drop-off would it trigger a warning, or would it not notice because the depths directly under the line are acceptable?

Pete

 

[flaming]

(or, I guess, they c) didn't plot any route at all and just pointed the bow in roughly the right direction, but that seems unlikely for such a boat).

My guess would be C.

I would be very, very surprised if the navigators plotted waypoints on those boats in a way similar to most of us do in our routine navigating. The rooting they do is all based around their polars and predicted wind. My bet, given the situation they were in was basically a drag race north, was that the crew will have been instructed to choose a roughly northerly heading to give best speed, and they may have been changing heading by 10 degrees or more as they chased the wind. (Up in the lulls, down in the puffs)

Any way you look at it this is about as public, and expensive, an error that it is possible to make as a Professional navigator.

On the questions of why there are as few as 8 people on board (the girls have 11 btw) that was part of the brief for this new OD boat. Crew costs were seen as being such a large percentage of the total budget that they decided to allow roller furling on the headsails and sail with only 8 as a cost cutting measure. Interestingly, after the first leg the sailors all seemed to be saying that it was actually less tiring than the last race as the boat protected them from the elements a bit better and they were doing fewer sail changes.

 

[Seajet]

Flaming,

thanks, that's a useful insight, both the nav and the crew / cost philosophy...

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I would guess its just below the exact route... but one of them (can't remember which!) also has a facility to warn of shallow water ahead on current track, which I think is really neat (and as you'll know as a software guy, probably not hard to code in)

 

[Seajet]

Phoenix,

like Pete my plotter is getting on a bit so I hadn't heard of this ' danger on that course ' feature either but it seems jolly handy.

I'm just wondering, as an extension of that in a way, itwould be handy to be able to set something like range rings so that anything shallow coming up ahead would sound an alarm, rather like a forward looking sounder but longer range and probably more reliable; do any plotters do this, anyone know ?

 

[estarzinger]

many modern plotters and tablet/laptop software packages will warn when a plotted route goes through shallow water.... a useful feature when using vector charts.

I am aware this is a normal feature on ECDIS systems (eg commercial IMO), but I am not aware of any recreational systems which do the same thing - eg check forward on the route and alarm when the depth is below a safety depth.

I just looked at the raymarine and furuno recreational plotter manuals and did not see such a feature. I am pretty sure that iNavX does not.

Would you please indicate what recreational systems you are aware of actually have this feature.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

The Navionics iPad app does it if you have the route planning package, and i'm sure i've seen it elsewhere.... i'll try and find it.

 

[st599]

I am aware this is a normal feature on ECDIS systems (eg commercial IMO), but I am not aware of any recreational systems which do the same thing - eg check forward on the route and alarm when the depth is below a safety depth.

I just looked at the raymarine and furuno recreational plotter manuals and did not see such a feature. I am pretty sure that iNavX does not.

Would you please indicate what recreational systems you are aware of actually have this feature.

Might add this as a feature request in OpenCPN.

 

[tudorsailor]

Might add this as a feature request in OpenCPN.

If you look at OpenCPN, these islands and reef are visible at the lowest level of zoom and not just when zoomed in. Hard to see how they ploughed into land.
Interesting that VOR has not shown footage of the grounding. Not good publicity I guess.

TS

 

[prv]

If you look at OpenCPN, these islands and reef are visible at the lowest level of zoom and not just when zoomed in. Hard to see how they ploughed into land.

They weren't using OpenCPN?

If you try the Navionics webapp ( http://webapp.navionics.com ), you'll find you need to zoom quite far in before the reef suddenly appears.

Pete

 

[st599]

If you look at OpenCPN, these islands and reef are visible at the lowest level of zoom and not just when zoomed in. Hard to see how they ploughed into land.
Interesting that VOR has not shown footage of the grounding. Not good publicity I guess.

TS

Is that not dependent on which set of Charts you're using?

 

[r_h]

Interesting that VOR has not shown footage of the grounding. Not good publicity I guess.

It's an incredibly remote spot and so far the crew has only been able to use the hand-held sat phone from their grab bag for communications, so they've had no chance of uploading photos, yet alone any footage of the incident.

 

[jerrytug]

It's an incredibly remote spot and so far the crew has only been able to use the hand-held sat phone from their grab bag for communications, so they've had no chance of uploading photos, yet alone any footage of the incident.

Seen this?

 

[doug748]

I am aware this is a normal feature on ECDIS systems (eg commercial IMO), but I am not aware of any recreational systems which do the same thing - eg check forward on the route and alarm when the depth is below a safety depth.

I just looked at the raymarine and furuno recreational plotter manuals and did not see such a feature. I am pretty sure that iNavX does not.

Would you please indicate what recreational systems you are aware of actually have this feature.

My plotter seems to have a route checker:

".......as well as the powerful Guardian Alarm which checks your route for potential charted dangers"

I have never used it. I assumed it was a feature of the C Map cartography. See here:

http://digitalyacht.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1120

Note this product is now discontinued.

I think the proposed feature ( a live "standing into danger" alarm) would be excellent. It could be linked to height of tide, for drying areas, and be a very useful back up.

 

[flaming]

Seen this?

That wasn't taken by the on board media guy though! It's being reported that he lost a lot of gear, but has saved some stuff and has some amazing footage. However, as said he hasn't been anywhere to get it out yet. And at a guess Volvo, Vestas and quite possibly the pro skipper and Nav on board may want to see it before it gets released to the public!

 

[st599]

That wasn't taken by the on board media guy though! It's being reported that he lost a lot of gear, but has saved some stuff and has some amazing footage. However, as said he hasn't been anywhere to get it out yet. And at a guess Volvo, Vestas and quite possibly the pro skipper and Nav on board may want to see it before it gets released to the public!

Hope he wasn't a freelancer.

He could get some stuff out via Sat Phone. If Volvo don't know how, I'll help them for only $1/4M.

 

[Spyro]

That wasn't taken by the on board media guy though! It's being reported that he lost a lot of gear, but has saved some stuff and has some amazing footage. However, as said he hasn't been anywhere to get it out yet. And at a guess Volvo, Vestas and quite possibly the pro skipper and Nav on board may want to see it before it gets released to the public!

I think it might be getting lost after they've seen it.

 

[Neil_Y]

Really surprised at this, fully crewed with latest kit and charts (I assume) and a shore side team giving routing data. Skipper should over see navigation decisions and navigator should check or zoom in when near hazards. When I've sailed Oceans two handed we even looked for under sea shallows as they can effect the sea state so best given a mile or two off. You should not hit this 20km lump of land even if you were navigating with sextant and paper charts.

Clearly mis use (lack of understanding) of the technology they had, like the sat nav and lorry stuck in the Devon lane scenario we see every year.