Volvo D1-13 and wiring in an engine immobilser.

[mickywillis]

Have a D1-13Hp engine and want to fit an electronic immobiliser in the wiring.
System purchased is a GPS tracking system which gives the opportunity to turn the engine off and not allow it to restart, by sending a text message to the control unit.
Reading the wiring diagram of the GPS tracker/immobiliser, a relay is provided which the instructions suggest to connect into the fuel pump wiring (of a petrol vehicle) to provide an open circuit to disable fuel pump and immobilise engine.
Now on my diesel engine, this wouldn't be possible as the fuel lift pump is mechanical.
Could I tap into the wiring of the engine stop solenoid (if one is fitted to a D1-13?) or could I break into say the oil pressure sensing wire (if low oil pressure shuts engine down? I don't know if it does on this engine?)
My D1-13 installation consists of the basic EVC control panel (with 4 buttons) and the tacho with LCD screen. There is no ignition key, all engine start/stop functions are controlled from the 4 button EVC panel
I'm concerned that fiddling with any wiring on the EVC system could cause a problem, so any suggestions as to my best options or solution?

 

[prv]

Would you not just put it in the wire to the starter solenoid, so that the engine can't be started when it's disconnected?

Of course, someone could still jump the starter with a carefully-placed screwdriver, but that pretty much applies whatever you do. Despite the EVC system this is still fundamentally a simple mechanical diesel with no ECU, and someone who can interfere with the wiring will be able to bypass whatever your immobiliser is attached to.

Pete

 

[VicS]

It seems to me to be an unnecessarily complex method of operating an immobilising device. A high tech tool looking for a use.

Why not simply fit an immobilising switch or a manual shut off valve in the fuel supply that can be operated before leaving the boa.t

 

[mickywillis]

Why so negative??
I ask a question and would hope an answer or two from Forum members.
The immobiliser is part and parcel of the system I'm installing:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121162642245

It seems to me to be an unnecessarily complex method of operating an immobilising device. A high tech tool looking for a use.

Why not simply fit an immobilising switch or a manual shut off valve in the fuel supply that can be operated before leaving the boa.t

 

[VicS]

Why so negative??
I ask a question and would hope an answer or two from Forum members.
The immobiliser is part and parcel of the system I'm installing:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121162642245

You have bought a system designed to be fitted to a motor car,

Fit it to your motor car!

Buy a more suitable system for your boat. David 2452 will probably be able to point you in the right direction if he sees the thread

 

[owen-cox]

You have bought a system designed to be fitted to a motor car,

Fit it to your motor car!

Buy a more suitable system for your boat. David 2452 will probably be able to point you in the right direction if he sees the thread

I am sure that system is fine for what the OP wants to do. I would connect it so that it breaks the supply to the fuel shut off solenoid so that it will not start if the immobiliser is on. The probelm with any kind of immobiliser in a yacht is that it is pretty easy to defeat or bypass. I had a cobra Thatcham approved immobiliser on a van and it failed. it took me two minutes to remove the loom from it and bypass it with a short piece of wire. Unless the system is linked into am ECU like modern cars are then there is realistically no way of immobilisong them securely ( using marine kit or not)

 

[VicS]

]I am sure that system is fine for what the OP wants to do. I would connect it so that it breaks the supply to the fuel shut off solenoid so that it will not start if the immobiliser is on.[/COLOR] The probelm with any kind of immobiliser in a yacht is that it is pretty easy to defeat or bypass. I had a cobra Thatcham approved immobiliser on a van and it failed. it took me two minutes to remove the loom from it and bypass it with a short piece of wire. Unless the system is linked into am ECU like modern cars are then there is realistically no way of immobilisong them securely ( using marine kit or not)

I think you will find that the engine stop solenoid is energised to stop the engine.

Some modification would be need to the immobilising system to energise the solenoid until the engine has stopped and then de-energise it again in the same way one would do it manually with the engine stop switch.

Maybe a relay with a timed on period or maybe the low oil pressure warning system could be utilized to energise the relay once the engine has stopped.

BTW the low oil pressure warning does not automatically stop the engine.

Not sure I particularly like the idea of a system that will immobilize the engine after the GPS has detected that the boat has moved away from its mooring!

It would be far better IMHO to forget the immobilizing feature of this gadget and activate some system manually that will prevent the engine starting in the first place before leaving the boat.

 

[prv]

I think you will find that the engine stop solenoid is energised to stop the engine.

Exactly. And it's trivial to pull the wires off it and just use the manual stop lever instead. The only thing that engine needs electricity for is to engage the starter solenoid and spin the motor, and you can trigger that with a screwdriver bypassing all the electronics. I know this because the EVC system was full of water and not working when we picked Ariam up and delivered her home.

Pete

 

[VicS]

Exactly. And it's trivial to pull the wires off it and just use the manual stop lever instead. The only thing that engine needs electricity for is to engage the starter solenoid and spin the motor, and you can trigger that with a screwdriver bypassing all the electronics. I know this because the EVC system was full of water and not working when we picked Ariam up and delivered her home.

Pete

You may well be right but I dont think its mentioned in the owners manual so even if there is one many/ most owners wont know about it

 

[prv]

You may well be right but I dont think its mentioned in the owners manual so even if there is one many/ most owners wont know about it

I'm extrapolating a bit from our D1-30, but they look very similar so I assume things like this are the same. Our stop lever has an orange decal with the word "STOP" on it, it's quite obvious.

Pete

 

[mickywillis]

Thanks to all who have replied with useful information and helpful advice.
I've received a number of PM's on this subject which offer alternative solutions, so will look into these.
Won't tell you what they are in case it's you who nicks my boat!!

 

[owen-cox]

I think you will find that the engine stop solenoid is energised to stop the engine.

Some modification would be need to the immobilising system to energise the solenoid until the engine has stopped and then de-energise it again in the same way one would do it manually with the engine stop switch.

Maybe a relay with a timed on period or maybe the low oil pressure warning system could be utilized to energise the relay once the engine has stopped.

BTW the low oil pressure warning does not automatically stop the engine.

Not sure I particularly like the idea of a system that will immobilize the engine after the GPS has detected that the boat has moved away from its mooring!

It would be far better IMHO to forget the immobilizing feature of this gadget and activate some system manually that will prevent the engine starting in the first place before leaving the boat.

I think you will find the stop solenoid is a small solenoid built into the injection pump that is energised to supply fuel to the injection system on this engine. the stop lever can be operated manually but this will only stop the engine and not allow it to start. I dont think it would be that dificult to supply 12V to it but at the end of the day there is almost nothing you can do to completely immobilise an engine. This is what 80/90s cars used for years and is not as simple as a mechanical lever.
I think if you wiggle the mechanical lever you would not override the electrical one.

 

[owen-cox]

Thanks to all who have replied with useful information and helpful advice.
I've received a number of PM's on this subject which offer alternative solutions, so will look into these.
Won't tell you what they are in case it's you who nicks my boat!!

good luck anyway, I hope you have something sorted out in the end.

 

[VicS]

I think you will find the stop solenoid is a small solenoid built into the injection pump that is energised to supply fuel to the injection system on this engine. .

Sorry Owen but it seems to be the same system as used in other VP engines in which either a stop button is held down until the engine has stopped or the key is turned one position counterclockwise, against a return spring, and held in this position until the engine has stopped. either operation energises the stop solenoid located on the pump.

Quite different to the system typically found in diesel engine cars where one merely has to turn the key to the off position to de-energise the fuel solenoid

 

[mickywillis]

No keys, ignition switch or manual stop (that I know of?) on this engine.
All engine start and stop functions are controlled by a 4 button control panel the same as this one here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/engine-not-turning-off-volvo-penta-d2-40b-162330.html

So assuming that these panels are low voltage controlled (5V?) the problem I have is there is no real security to prevent stating other than the main battery switch being turned off!
A mechanical device could be used but would still be possible to override, hence why I want to wire into the solenoid circuit.

 

[prv]

No keys, ignition switch or manual stop (that I know of?) on this engine.
All engine start and stop functions are controlled by a 4 button control panel the same as this one here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/engine-not-turning-off-volvo-penta-d2-40b-162330.html

Yep, exactly like mine. You have one less cylinder but otherwise I believe the engines are pretty much the same.

So assuming that these panels are low voltage controlled (5V?) the problem I have is there is no real security to prevent stating other than the main battery switch being turned off!

Correct, and this is fine by me. If the boat is locked then they can't get in the cabin to turn on the battery switch.

If you have a single master switch for both batteries, and you want to be able to disable the engine while leaving the power on for the fridge etc, then you might need to add another switch for the purpose.

A mechanical device could be used but would still be possible to override, hence why I want to wire into the solenoid circuit.

And as I said in post #8, this could be overridden by just disconnecting the stop solenoid.

Also, if you end up with a system where the solenoid is constantly being held in all the time that you want the engine to be immobilised, you might end up wasting a fair bit of power heating up that coil and if it's not rated for continuous use (being only intended for a couple of seconds at a time) then you might even burn it out.

The fact remains that these are very simple engines, and if someone has physical access to it then there isn't much you can do electrically to disable it. It needs 12v at the starter motor to get going (which could be jump leads) and from then on it neither needs electricity nor can be stopped by applying it, with the exception of the stop solenoid which can be easily disconnected.

Pete

 

[rogerthebodger]

No keys, ignition switch or manual stop (that I know of?) on this engine.
All engine start and stop functions are controlled by a 4 button control panel the same as this one here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/engine-not-turning-off-volvo-penta-d2-40b-162330.html

So assuming that these panels are low voltage controlled (5V?) the problem I have is there is no real security to prevent stating other than the main battery switch being turned off!
A mechanical device could be used but would still be possible to override, hence why I want to wire into the solenoid circuit.

Looking at one of the few wiring diagrams it seems that there is a possible connection to the gear linkage that prevents the engine being started in gear. This as in my case is a micro switch that closes when the gear control is in neutral . If your immobiliser opens a relay contact when disables, it seems likely as you says it cuts power to a fuel pump in a petrol engine, this contact could be connected in series with the wire to the gear lever neutral micro switch thus preventing the engine being started with the electronic control unit.

 

[VicS]

No keys, ignition switch or manual stop (that I know of?) on this engine.
All engine start and stop functions are controlled by a 4 button control panel the same as this one here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/engine-not-turning-off-volvo-penta-d2-40b-162330.html

So assuming that these panels are low voltage controlled (5V?) the problem I have is there is no real security to prevent stating other than the main battery switch being turned off!
A mechanical device could be used but would still be possible to override, hence why I want to wire into the solenoid circuit.

Ah you did not say what version of engine you had. The manual I downloaded is clearly for an earlier version

However the link to the cruisers includes a good description of how the system you have works. Pretty much the same really but with the complication of the EVC system designed really for larger engines.

You will have to adapt your immobiliser so that power is applied to the relay in the stop circuit in order for it to energise the stop solenoid on the injection pump. instead of merely interrupting the power supply to an electric pump. or perhaps directly to the stop solenoid. You may be able to do this with an additional relay.

I am still dubious about a system that will immobilise the engine when it eect that the boat has moved some distance from the safety of its mooring. What happens next ? The people attempting to steal it will perhaps call for assistance in returning it to the mooring or just abandon it to drift wherever wind and tide dictates.
It remains my firm belief that you should be looking for some system that prevents unauthorised starting in the first place

I feel sure there will be a manual, mechanical stop device otherwise it would be difficult to stop the engine in the event of a failure of the electrical stop system. It would be wise to investigate this. Ask your VP mechanic.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You will have to adapt your immobiliser so that power is applied to the relay in the stop circuit in order for it to energise the stop solenoid on the injection pump. instead of merely interrupting the power supply to an electric pump. or perhaps directly to the stop solenoid. You may be able to do this with an additional relay.

The potential problem with this is that the stop solenoid will have power on it continuous and unless the stop solenoid is rated for continuous operation the solenoid would over heat and burn out or worst cause a fire.

Have a look at my post #17.

 

[ianj99]

I have a similar device and it is as suitable for a boat as a car.
I wired the engine relay into the control panel on my MP446 Marine Power to inhibit the stop solenoid from moving to the start position.
I also used the door switch input with a microswitch on the wheelhouse door.

If your engine does have a solenoid on the injection pump you can wire the relay contacts in series with it, otherwise disable the starter solenoid.

Years ago I fitted a diy alarm to my car - it was back in the days of the distributor. When the ignition was switched off a relay connected the horn to the points so any attempt to crank the engine resulted in the horn sounding in time with the cranking.

You could also connect a horn if one is fitted, to the alarm so it sounds if anyone tries to crank the engine. (or even a relay on the oil pressure switch will work - no oil pressure, relay on, horn sounds even if a screw driver is used on the starter)