Viking Navigation

[Plomong]

The early history of transatlantic navigation is fascinating. I would thoroughly recommend "The Farfarers" by Farley Mowatt which tells the story of Celtic peoples of either Ireland or Scotland who reached America some 50 years before the Vikings (they were trying to get out of their reach). There is an archaological record which has not been properly documented, partly because it upsets the presumed "First Peoples" Canadian story (even though the Innuit acknowlege that the well lichened, and obviously very old, remains are not theirs).

St Brendan (an Irish saint) is known to have been in Newfoundland long before the Vikings came near Ireland. His writings describe a people that could only be Eskimos, and an island and its environs that can only be Long Island and Manhattan !!! Look it up, research and enjoy !!!

Plomong

 

[AntarcticPilot]

St Brendan (an Irish saint) is known to have been in Newfoundland long before the Vikings came near Ireland. His writings describe a people that could only be Eskimos, and an island and its environs that can only be Long Island and Manhattan !!! Look it up, research and enjoy !!!

Plomong

"Known" is a bit strong. One possible interpretation of the "Navigatio" is that Brendan made it to North America; however, so much of it is pretty obvious story-telling mixed up with Christian eschatology and Graeco-Roman mythology that all of it is suspect. The best we can say is that people like Tim Severin have shown that the technology available to Brendan was capable of making the voyages people have suggested as interpretations of the "Navigatio". To my mind the most convincing bit is the Island of the Smiths; although obviously written up by someone conversant with Greek or Roman mythology, it is such a convincing picture of a volcanic eruption that I think that the author of the "Navigatio" (whoever wrote the Navigatio - probably not Brendan but someone writing him up later) must have observed or heard an account of a maritime eruption. There are only two likely places - The Vestmann Islands in Iceland or Jan Mayen. The Vestmann Islands were certainly known to the Irish; Vestmann is a Viking term applied to the Irish, and the Sagas mention that Iceland had Irish monks when the Vikings came to settle the land. But (and I am no expert on this), I don't think the eruptive history of the Vestmann Islands matches up to the period, which puts Jan Mayen in the frame.

By the way, a modern retelling of the "Navigatio" is available - "The Brendan Voyage" by Michael Scott and Gloria Gaghan is a very readable account.

By the way, while people like Tim Severin have made voyages showing the capabilities of ancient sea-craft, we should be cautious about interpreting capability as meaning that the voyages took place. It is very much one thing setting off in a somewhat doubtful craft to reach a location that you KNOW exists and another thing entirely to set off not knowing if there was anywhere within reach of your craft. The Viking world-view expected there to be a point beyond which there was nothing but ocean; I understand this was a fairly common idea around the North Atlantic.

We can think of it this way: I have a 31' sloop, at least as capable and sea-worthy as anything available to Brendan. She is certainly capable of going further without requiring a major overhaul! I also have access to modern means of preserving food and so on. I KNOW I could carry enough provisions to cross the Atlantic if I wished to do so, and I could keep healthy doing so. But I probably couldn't carry enough to cross the Atlantic and get back again. So, you're Brendan.So, you keep heading west - and you realize you have just about enough provisions left to get home. Your crew are already suffering deficiency diseases, though - you don't have any kind of fresh food. You have a crew of 12 hungry and probably weakening monks. Do you keep going, not knowing when you'll get more provisions - or do you turn back, or head to somewhere you know exists? I suspect that anyone - saint or not - who tried to keep going without a VERY convincing reason would get over-ruled by the crew in short order. Columbus only made it a) because he thought the world was a lot smaller than it actually is and b) he made a deal with his crew that he would turn back within the limits of his provisions. He got lucky - he was wrong about the size of the Earth, but America happened to be in the way! Columbus was probably the most successful snake-oil merchant in the world - his snake-oil just happened to be good for something!

 

[Boreades]

AntarcticPilot,

I sincerely bow to your superior knowledge.

I wonder what Tim Severin & Sir Robin Knox Johnston think, both having tried Viking boats & navigation ?

That makes me think, even more books to read !

After Sir Robin's documentary on the BBC, I took the liberty of contacting him and pointing out the Vikings also had Icelandic Spar (clear crystals of calcite) which polarises light, so they could tell you where the sun is in the sky on foggy days.

 

[Boreades]

We can think of it this way: I have a 31' sloop, at least as capable and sea-worthy as anything available to Brendan. She is certainly capable of going further without requiring a major overhaul! I also have access to modern means of preserving food and so on. I KNOW I could carry enough provisions to cross the Atlantic if I wished to do so, and I could keep healthy doing so. But I probably couldn't carry enough to cross the Atlantic and get back again. So, you're Brendan.So, you keep heading west - and you realize you have just about enough provisions left to get home. Your crew are already suffering deficiency diseases, though - you don't have any kind of fresh food. You have a crew of 12 hungry and probably weakening monks. Do you keep going, not knowing when you'll get more provisions - or do you turn back, or head to somewhere you know exists? I suspect that anyone - saint or not - who tried to keep going without a VERY convincing reason would get over-ruled by the crew in short order. Columbus only made it a) because he thought the world was a lot smaller than it actually is and b) he made a deal with his crew that he would turn back within the limits of his provisions. He got lucky - he was wrong about the size of the Earth, but America happened to be in the way! Columbus was probably the most successful snake-oil merchant in the world - his snake-oil just happened to be good for something!

An excellent piece of common sense. However, let's not forget that Brendan was on a Mission From God, and might just have been telling the monks that "God will provide". Wherever they did get to, presumably they must have found enough provisions to survive and get back as well.

 

[capnsensible]

Cheekkout Viking Horns and Columbus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYzfKiIWN4g

 

[Adrian_]

To my mind the most convincing bit is the Island of the Smiths; although obviously written up by someone conversant with Greek or Roman mythology, it is such a convincing picture of a volcanic eruption that I think that the author of the "Navigatio" (whoever wrote the Navigatio - probably not Brendan but someone writing him up later) must have observed or heard an account of a maritime eruption. There are only two likely places - The Vestmann Islands in Iceland or Jan Mayen. The Vestmann Islands were certainly known to the Irish; Vestmann is a Viking term applied to the Irish, and the Sagas mention that Iceland had Irish monks when the Vikings came to settle the land. But (and I am no expert on this), I don't think the eruptive history of the Vestmann Islands matches up to the period, which puts Jan Mayen in the frame.

Or Brendan (or whoever wrote Navigatio) just happened to read Roman literature describing the Aeolian Islands near Sicily?
The Romans believed that the island Vulcano is the chimney of god Vulcan's workshop. This can very well explain the "Island of the Smiths" from Navigatio...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

An excellent piece of common sense. However, let's not forget that Brendan was on a Mission From God, and might just have been telling the monks that "God will provide". Wherever they did get to, presumably they must have found enough provisions to survive and get back as well.

Well, with another hat on, I can assure you that even those on a mission from God take worldly circumstances into account most of the time, especially if it is a group involved rather than an individual. 2000 years of practical experience suggest that God rewards common-sense, though he seems to like people who use common sense to implement unworldly objectives! Think Mother Theresa. And even if some of the monks felt that way, I doubt if you could get agreement from a group of 12 monks; at least one of them would have decided that some creative sabotage was in order..

Of course, if Brendan went island hopping via the Viking route, as one reading of the Navigatio suggests, then on a clear day you're not out of sight of land on the crucial passage across the Denmark Strait; and we know the Irish definitely made it to Iceland (the Viking kicked them out!). If they'd climbed a mountain in the West of Iceland, they could have seen Greenland's mountains.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Or Brendan (or whoever wrote Navigatio) just happened to read Roman literature describing the Aeolian Islands near Sicily?
The Romans believed that the island Vulcano is the chimney of god Vulcan's workshop. This can very well explain the "Island of the Smiths" from Navigatio...

As you say, this too is a possibility. And an awful lot of the Navigatio is clearly story-telling (the incident of them lighting a fire on the back of a beast that decides to submerge, for example). For that reason, the real answer to all the pre-Viking "discoveries" of America is to say that until we have good archaeological evidence (like that at L'anse aux Meadows), they are "Not Proven", to borrow that good Scots verdict! Single artefacts are not evidence unless they have a very solid provenance in clearly datable contexts.

However, it's always worth remembering that the ancient Greek author Herodotus recorded a voyage by ancient Egyptians around Africa from the Red Sea, via the Cape of Good Hope, and back through the Mediterranean. He said that he didn't believe them, because when they passed the Cape of Good Hope, they said the sun was on their right hand at midday. Herodotus, following the mainstream thought of the day, assumed that the tropics would be impassably hot, so it was therefore impossible to go south of the equator (the author of the web-page gets that bit slightly wrong). But, of course, we know that the voyage is perfectly feasible, and the sun is indeed on your right hand passing from east to west at the Cape of Good Hope! What Herodotus regarded as disproof, we now regard as evidence strengthening the veracity of the account.

 

[SAWDOC]

We can think of it this way: I have a 31' sloop, at least as capable and sea-worthy as anything available to Brendan.

When watching the utube vid of Tim Severins re-enactment, I was struck by how low in the water and how exposed the brendan craft seemed. It was certainly going to be an extremely wet voyage.

Very interesting thread- thanks for very informative contributions!

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Actually, the job was subbed out!

However, it's always worth remembering that the ancient Greek author Herodotus recorded a voyage by ancient Egyptians around Africa from the Red Sea, via the Cape of Good Hope, and back through the Mediterranean. He said that he didn't believe them, because when they passed the Cape of Good Hope, they said the sun was on their right hand at midday. Herodotus, following the mainstream thought of the day, assumed that the tropics would be impassably hot, so it was therefore impossible to go south of the equator (the author of the web-page gets that bit slightly wrong). But, of course, we know that the voyage is perfectly feasible, and the sun is indeed on your right hand passing from east to west at the Cape of Good Hope! What Herodotus regarded as disproof, we now regard as evidence strengthening the veracity of the account.[/QUOTE]

The female Pharoah of the time actually subbed the voyage to out to the Phoenicians, who were the acknowledged Master Mariners of the Med, from way before the Peloponnesian War(they were then vassals of Persia) even after the rise of Rome and Carthage.
As they were on day rate, not a price, they took about three years, stopping to grow food every so often, before reentering the Med via Hercules Pillars. Not much changed with subbies over the centuries then.

 

[Adrian_]

It's probably worth mentioning that Carthage itself was a Phoenician colony.

As for Brendan, what makes me VERY cautious about his exploits is the REAL motivation that some irish monks would have to go sailing into the unknown. At the time there were plenty of tribes that one could try to convert without going on such a perilous voyage.
I can easily understand the vikings going West to find more people to plunder, or the Phoenicians undergoing a long, paid voyage. Monks going into the unknown? Hmm, not really...

 

[Sybarite]

It's probably worth mentioning that Carthage itself was a Phoenician colony.

As for Brendan, what makes me VERY cautious about his exploits is the REAL motivation that some irish monks would have to go sailing into the unknown. At the time there were plenty of tribes that one could try to convert without going on such a perilous voyage.
I can easily understand the vikings going West to find more people to plunder, or the Phoenicians undergoing a long, paid voyage. Monks going into the unknown? Hmm, not really...

As far as Brendan is concerned he was not sailing into the unknown , simply because he was not the first. In the first chapter of Navigatio, you can read that Saint Barrid described to him the land of Paradise to the west and this is what inspired him to go.

 

[Adrian_]

Perhaps using just capital letters didn't made it clear enough :

As for Brendan, what makes me VERY cautious about his exploits is the REAL motivation that some irish monks would have to go sailing into the unknown.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

It's probably worth mentioning that Carthage itself was a Phoenician colony.

As for Brendan, what makes me VERY cautious about his exploits is the REAL motivation that some irish monks would have to go sailing into the unknown. At the time there were plenty of tribes that one could try to convert without going on such a perilous voyage.
I can easily understand the vikings going West to find more people to plunder, or the Phoenicians undergoing a long, paid voyage. Monks going into the unknown? Hmm, not really...

Um. The motivation of many Irish monks is well known, and it was to renounce the world in favour of a solitary life with God, seeking to be closer to God by being far from mankind. And this is pretty well attested archaeologically; look at the number of Irish hermit cells on tiny inaccessible islands on the West Coast of Scotland. If an island is big enough to support a man and a goat, chances are you'll find a hermitage on it.

Of course, those whose voyaging ended up near a non-Christian community would feel that God had guided them to evangelize the community, but that was the booby prize as far as most of them were concerned. Brendan hit the jackpot by getting to the Promised Land - and gained a lot of saint points by voluntarily returning to tell the story!

BTW, I don't think there is much evidence that Brendan ever existed, beyond the Navigatio - which is late (about 900 AD, perhaps 450 years after the event), clearly composite and substantially made up - and the Vita, which is dated even later than the Navigatio, about 800 years after he existed, if he did!

Don't forget; the ideal was UNGUIDED voyaging; going where wind and wave took you. Of course, no doubt some cheated a bit, but that was the ideal. And it takes the edge off the North American interpretation; I doubt if a curragh leaving the south or west coast of Ireland would end up crossing the Atlantic if it just went where the wind took it. More likely it would end up on the west coast of Scotland, Orkney, Shetland, The Faeroes and (if they were really unlucky!) Norway. We know a few made it to Iceland; that must have been a bit against the odds. But a fair wind for an Atlantic crossing in the latitude of Ireland?

 

[Adrian_]

Um. The motivation of many Irish monks is well known, and it was to renounce the world in favour of a solitary life with God, seeking to be closer to God by being far from mankind. And this is pretty well attested archaeologically; look at the number of Irish hermit cells on tiny inaccessible islands on the West Coast of Scotland. If an island is big enough to support a man and a goat, chances are you'll find a hermitage on it.

Actually this is the main argument I'm using against Brendan's exploits. Indeed hermitage was the goal, not a death by sinking in unknown waters. And there were plenty of places to use, it's not like Ireland has a population similar to China's.

Of course, those whose voyaging ended up near a non-Christian community would feel that God had guided them to evangelize the community, but that was the booby prize as far as most of them were concerned. Brendan hit the jackpot by getting to the Promised Land - and gained a lot of saint points by voluntarily returning to tell the story!

IMO this is the part that makes least sense in the whole story. If Brendan really landed in America and started to evangelize the natives, he would have had no excuse at all for leaving his new flock behind, only to return to Ireland.

BTW, I don't think there is much evidence that Brendan ever existed, beyond the Navigatio - which is late (about 900 AD, perhaps 450 years after the event), clearly composite and substantially made up - and the Vita, which is dated even later than the Navigatio, about 800 years after he existed, if he did!

Don't forget; the ideal was UNGUIDED voyaging; going where wind and wave took you. Of course, no doubt some cheated a bit, but that was the ideal. And it takes the edge off the North American interpretation; I doubt if a curragh leaving the south or west coast of Ireland would end up crossing the Atlantic if it just went where the wind took it. More likely it would end up on the west coast of Scotland, Orkney, Shetland, The Faeroes and (if they were really unlucky!) Norway. We know a few made it to Iceland; that must have been a bit against the odds. But a fair wind for an Atlantic crossing in the latitude of Ireland?

Here we obviously agree on all points.
My perception is that Brendan's exploits were a simple fabrication made by some monk with access to classic literature and who had a vivid imagination.
If the pagan greeks had Odysseus, why wouldn't the Christians had Brendan?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

IMO this is the part that makes least sense in the whole story. If Brendan really landed in America and started to evangelize the natives, he would have had no excuse at all for leaving his new flock behind, only to return to Ireland.

Well, according to the Navigatio, Brendan THOUGHT he'd found the earthly paradise. By definition, any natives wouldn't need evangelizing; they were angels or the blessed!

If he did make it - and I agree it is a) unlikely and b) unproveable - then it must have been touch and go, as I'm sure any real contact with native peoples would have rapidly disabused him of any notions of its being the Earthly Paradise!

 

[Adrian_]

Well, according to the Navigatio, Brendan THOUGHT he'd found the earthly paradise. By definition, any natives wouldn't need evangelizing; they were angels or the blessed!

Well, if he didn't meet anyone how would he knew it was the earthly paradise?

If he did make it - and I agree it is a) unlikely and b) unproveable - then it must have been touch and go, as I'm sure any real contact with native peoples would have rapidly disabused him of any notions of its being the Earthly Paradise!

I think we can rule out the touch and go exactly for the reason you mentioned earlier on the topic: supplies. Particullary when we factor in the knowledge they now had about how long and perilous the voyage was.

And if he stayed there long enough to gather (and prepare) supplies he would have made contact and therefore had to start evanghelising and so on.

No matter how we look at it, this story just doesn't make sense.