Victoria 34 and 38

[Fr J Hackett]

Perhaps the answer is to have the moulding, deck and hull done in the far East, Taiwan perhaps as a lot of US builds were typically some Tayanas were. Although I think Northshore at one point looked at doing that for a decent sized successor to the Vancouver 36, they didn't do it.

 

[Sailfree]

I still think this thread is mostly for dreamers.

Firstly look at the threads on Far East sails and the strong response regarding buy British or criticism regarding Far East quality yet now some are suggesting we would jump at the opportunity of buying a yacht mainly made in the Far East - smell the coffee!

Secondly if we generalise into the viable boat manufacturers say quality boats ( mainly exemplified by Swedish) and production boats mainly French & German. None of these are at full production in the current economic climate and any one of them would produce a boat that would increase sales. Either all these manufacturers are idiots and the fact that they are the ones that have survived for years is conveniently being forgotten and the dreamers on here think they are missing an opportunity and if they built boats based on designs from manufacturers that have failed there would be a demand!

Sorry this thread is about dreamers who want an old design, built with quality but at a price that competes with production boats! Get real!

I also suspect that the dreamers with this mindset are unlikely to be able to afford to buy such a boat even if it was available as the business acumen being demonstrated does not indicate that they would have been successful enough to afford a new boat!

I will now await the next thread saying they don't build new boats as good as the old, new design are useless/ugly, and all keels should be encapsulated and all rudders should be skeg hung oh and they should only cost 50% of their current advertised price. I forgot and they should be sail able in the F10 that everyone knows we regularly go weekend sailing in and not slam!

 

[roblpm]

I still think this thread is mostly for dreamers.

Firstly look at the threads on Far East sails and the strong response regarding buy British or criticism regarding Far East quality yet now some are suggesting we would jump at the opportunity of buying a yacht mainly made in the Far East - smell the coffee!

Secondly if we generalise into the viable boat manufacturers say quality boats ( mainly exemplified by Swedish) and production boats mainly French & German. None of these are at full production in the current economic climate and any one of them would produce a boat that would increase sales. Either all these manufacturers are idiots and the fact that they are the ones that have survived for years is conveniently being forgotten and the dreamers on here think they are missing an opportunity and if they built boats based on designs from manufacturers that have failed there would be a demand!

Sorry this thread is about dreamers who want an old design, built with quality but at a price that competes with production boats! Get real!

I also suspect that the dreamers with this mindset are unlikely to be able to afford to buy such a boat even if it was available as the business acumen being demonstrated does not indicate that they would have been successful enough to afford a new boat!

I will now await the next thread saying they don't build new boats as good as the old, new design are useless/ugly, and all keels should be encapsulated and all rudders should be skeg hung oh and they should only cost 50% of their current advertised price. I forgot and they should be sail able in the F10 that everyone knows we regularly go weekend sailing in and not slam!

U are right of course.

However you have to dream a bit!!

I am dreaming of a hallberg rassy with no teak, no mahogany interior and half the price!!

 

[oldvarnish]

I still think this thread is mostly for dreamers.

If you're not a dreamer, you're not a sailor.

 

[dunedin]

I am dreaming of a hallberg rassy with no teak, no mahogany interior and half the price!!

Isnt that a Bavaria then !

Sailfree does sum this thread up well. What matters for new build boats is the opinions and preferences of the people with both the cash and inclination to buy a new boat.

 

[GrahamM376]

I would suspect it's the fitting out which has the major cost so maybe there's a possible gap in the market for home completion of hulls for which moulds are already available and would be moulded to order. Hunter UK, Delvecourt (IIRC Colvic hulls) and a few others used to offer bare or sailaway versions - are they still in business? Still of course the argument about which hulls would be viable.

 

[Javelin]

I will now await the next thread saying they don't build new boats as good as the old, new design are useless/ugly, and all keels should be encapsulated and all rudders should be skeg hung oh and they should only cost 50% of their current advertised price. I forgot and they should be sail able in the F10 that everyone knows we regularly go weekend sailing in and not slam!

And are we therefore supposed to accept from new boat manufacturers bad practice and poor structural design offset against light airy cabins and perceived value for money.
Or do we accept now that after 10 years use that compression post deformation, chain plate cracking, rudder bearing failure, mild steel keelbolts, leaking windows and gel crazing due to flex, bulkhead rot due to bad tabling, is to be expected.
As this is what I see almost on a daily basis.

 

[E39mad]

The hulls were moulded by Northshore for Victoria. There is a lot more resin, CSM and Woven Rovings than your average AWB. More material cost here too.

 

[Daydream believer]

The hulls were moulded by Northshore for Victoria. There is a lot more resin, CSM and Woven Rovings than your average AWB. More material cost here too.

There is a saying " Anyone can design a bridge to stay up - but it takes a good structural engineer that can design a bridge that only just stays up"
I suspect the same goes for boats

 

[Tranona]

Whether or not you could make a profitable business building and selling yachts alone is, I agree, a difficult and fraught adventure into the unknown.

However if you have an existing profitable business that uses similar skills, equipment and facilities and crucially has spare capacity, many of the hurdles of a start-up are avoided.
Indeed it could be argued that renovation work is much harder than a new build as you're not firstly involved in a rot chase with the associated dismantling.

Hull and Deck laminating can be subbed out using a detailed spec and then shipped to the yard for fitting out.
In this case the major tooling already exists and so tooling amortisation costs would be significantly reduced.
Yes new tooling would be required for the internal fit out but these costs in my view would not be a show stopper.
Economies of scale would hit us with the purchase of the selected kit, from cookers to rig and sails compared to the big boys,
However we are still a significant buyer of all associated kit in the day to day running of the yard so increasing our spend via new build also improves our negotiating power.

The other aspect to consider is why.
If we wanted just to build new and sell than we'd go for a 20' to 25' general purpose fishing boat/punt - something like an Arvor, as they sell and are cheap and easy to build.
A yacht is very different animal, but not any yacht, a yacht with a pedigree, an expectation of quality and seaworthiness, with a following and an aura worth living up to and maintaining.
A Contessa 32 for example (ah someone beat us too it)

Whether the Vic is that yacht I'm not totally sure, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

That model has been tried before. In the past, many boatyard picked up old moulds of previously popular boats or bare moldings to complete alongside their regular work. They all failed. Matters made more difficult by the RCD in 1998 which killed of this type of activity, along with home completion. The boats you have in mind would be unlikely to meet the RCD.

The world you are describing is 30 years or more out of date from a time when there was a shortage of good boats and small scale specialist and home completion filled a big gap. Nowadays somebody spending £200k+ which is what you 34 would be is spoilt for choice and has no need to take the risk of buying an obsolete design from an unknown builder which has a doubtful resale value.

BT have no doubt you see the defects in modern boats that you list. Of course you do because your job is to deal with broken boats. This does not mean it is representative of the whole boat population where the vast majority of boats give their owners good service without any of the problems you see.

 

[Sailfree]

As a chartered Structural Engineer that designed the bridges on the Medina ring road and the "temporary" A13 flyover over the North circular road I believe Javelins comments deserve a response.

I own a Jeanneau boat that has completed 10 yrs on the charter market, Engine 3800hrs and I do not recognise the faults you describe. It is designed and built fit for purpose IMHO.

I have replace worn rudder bearings but don't consider wear a failure after all I replace tyres & brakes on a car. While I have a Deck Saloon I have never had any window leaks (nor on 2 previous Dufour boats that were on charter).

I admit though I am not keen on the egg crate type inner hulls bonded to the outer hull that Beneteau pioneered and all production boats now use to keep cost low. This is why at boat shows the hulls now sit on formers under each bulkhead instead of say a 6 pad cradle as with formers the hulls distort less and the doors can still be opened by the punters. I choose my boat as one of the last of the GRP boats with ribs and visible strengthening. Even that type of construction is probably not as good as X boats or Arcona that use an inner frame on which the mast (through deck) sits and shrouds connect and keel bolts to - but there is an additional cost for this type of construction and I couldn't afford it (nor to the make a DS version that I prefer. All boats choices are a compromise and you can't have everything!!

 

[JumbleDuck]

That model has been tried before. In the past, many boatyard picked up old moulds of previously popular boats or bare moldings to complete alongside their regular work. They all failed. Matters made more difficult by the RCD in 1998 which killed of this type of activity, along with home completion. The boats you have in mind would be unlikely to meet the RCD. .

Both the V/F34 and the V/F38 were, as far as I am aware, produced into RCD days, as were the F26 and V800. Home completion is, I agree, a less realistic prospect, but even then there is always Cat D, is there not? It's not as if RCD category matters for anything, particularly to a home builder.

Nowadays somebody spending £200k+ which is what you 34 would be is spoilt for choice and has no need to take the risk of buying an obsolete design from an unknown builder which has a doubtful resale value.

I'm not sure about the word "obsolete" there. "Old fashioned" might be better, and I think it's noticeable that the hand-finished cruising yacht market tends to have much more traditional designs than the mass manufacturers. Perhaps the GT35 wouldn't have fallen so firmly on its arse if it had had some classic style.

Traditional sells, cutting edge sells, nothing grates quite like passé trendiness. The V34 hasn't dated nearly as badly as all those retroussé triangular sterns on fifteen years ago, and I suspect owners of much newer AWBs are going to get a nasty shock when the second hand market takes a cold, hard look at outdated solid square sterns and compares them with up-to-date fold down transoms.

I very much doubt that a production line of V34s will ever start up but, like the Co32, there might be a market for a few.

 

[Tranona]

Even if the design met the RCD it and the builder would need to re certify. Cost my mate who built Golden Hinds £8k in 1999 and he did all the technical work himself.

Who in his right mind would spend £200k on a Cat D ocean cruiser. You can get a perfectly good 34 for under £60k. Spend £25k on it and you would get a better boat than a one knocked up in an obscure boatyard.

No offense to the OP but I saw lots of that going on when I was in the business and felt for the poor owners and their tarnished dreams.

 

[Javelin]

Sorry couldn't resist,
This came out of shed 1 at our "obscure boatyard" yesterday.
Complete renovation, shipped to us by truck from IOW a year ago.
New planking below wl, deadwood, engines, deck, wheelhouse and interior stripped and rebuilt.
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/d22ld7q1brrhbg2/MOV_0070.mp4?dl=0[/video]

 

[Poecheng]

Looks like a nice lowloader. Could have done with that about a year ago on another thread :encouragement:

 

[robmcg]

Sorry couldn't resist,
This came out of shed 1 at our "obscure boatyard" yesterday.
Complete renovation, shipped to us by truck from IOW a year ago.
New planking below wl, deadwood, engines, deck, wheelhouse and interior stripped and rebuilt.
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/d22ld7q1brrhbg2/MOV_0070.mp4?dl=0[/video]

But surely that's an obsolete design - bet there isn't even a wipe clean surface down below. Most on here would have told you to chuck a match on it when it came in a year ago!:applause:

 

[Twister_Ken]

Sorry couldn't resist,
This came out of shed 1 at our "obscure boatyard" yesterday.
Complete renovation, shipped to us by truck from IOW a year ago.
New planking below wl, deadwood, engines, deck, wheelhouse and interior stripped and rebuilt.
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/d22ld7q1brrhbg2/MOV_0070.mp4?dl=0[/video]

I note you didn't mention what the owner spent on it! From Classic Boat, in their 'vote for 2014 awards' (my emphasis)

LOA 24ft 6in (7.5m), BEAM 7ft 8in (2.3m), DRAUGHT 5ft (1.5m),

DESIGN Charles D Mower

Misty

The restoration of Misty embodies something that we have been banging on about for a while: the idea that a restoration to purpose is as viable and worthy as a restoration to substance. The 1962 David Cheverton-designed racing sloop, traditionally built by Lallows of Cowes, was found in a bad state by racing sailor Stephen Card, who had Adam Way restore her to race again. He spent an amazing £280,000 on the project, which gives her something in common with Nausikaa, another money-no-object restoration of a smaller yacht not from a prestige designer like Herreshoff or Fife. Interesting times – see our January issue for the full story.
The restoration of Misty embodies something that we have been banging on about for a while: the idea that a restoration to purpose is as viable and worthy as a restoration to substance. The 1962 David Cheverton-designed racing sloop, traditionally built by Lallows of Cowes, was found in a bad state by racing sailor Stephen Card, who had Adam Way restore her to race again. He spent an amazing £280,000 on the project, which gives her something in common with Nausikaa, another money-no-object restoration of a smaller yacht not from a prestige designer like Herreshoff or Fife. Interesting times – see our January issue for the full story.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Who in his right mind would spend £200k on a Cat D ocean cruiser.

Who cares? My boat is uncertified - does that make it less safe than identical boats which, three years later, had to have a users manual and a plaque for one day to get a Cat B certificate? Sure, if you're buying a radical new design in might be useful to know that some stability calculations have been done, but he design of a home finished V34 would be fundamentally as good as any other V34. Of course it could be compromised by the constructions, but you can make any alterations you like to a certified boat the day after it's launched ...

When people buy Cat A ocean cruisers secondhand, do they have them carefully examined to make sure they are still in category? As a matter of interest, what category is your classic boat?

I can see a point to the RCD, but I think its importance to the boat buying public is greatly overestimated.

 

[Daydream believer]

That model has been tried before. In the past, many boatyard picked up old moulds of previously popular boats or bare moldings .

That is how Hanse started & they are still going. They did , however, have a period of losses later on & purchase by a venture company kept them going & back to health
In their case I believe it to be the injection of cash that allowed survival. It was not the use of old moulds that was unsuccessful in the first instance

 

[E39mad]

When Northshore took over the Vancouvers from Pheon (having moulded them) they immediately put an internal moulding in the then V32 and the V28 (modified V27).

Their moulds/rights might be worth tracking down as had a bigger following than Victoria due to numbers sold. Range had the following:

V28
V34
V34 Pilot
V38 (exteneded 36)
V38 Pilot