Victoire 1044 v Victoria 34 .... any thoughts?

[NealB]

Just out of idle curiosity, I wonder if anyone has any opinions on the relative merits of these two boats?

Both strike me as very good looking, in a retro sort of way.

As a result, internal volumes look small by modern standards.

The internal fitout on the Victoire looks to be to a much better standard.

Anyone here sailed either, or both?

 

[dancrane]

There was a very complete, largely favourable YM review of the Victoria 34, back in about 1991. I read it repeatedly, and drooled a lot.

I heard that several examples were owned by the armed forces, whose use has perhaps proven the design's robustness.

And those much-derided Byron cruiser-handicaps, which attempt to suggest Portsmouth Yardstick handicaps for uncompetitively-focused designs, give the hefty, ocean-cruising Victoria 34 a very impressive rating of 945...same as an Osprey dinghy.

Never heard of the Victoire.

 

[Hydrozoan]

No experience of either, and like Dan I was not even aware of the Victoire 1044 – the look of which I do very much like (somewhat the more ‘modern’ - not that the Victoria isn’t very pretty of course). My main observations are the differences in keel profile, draft and lines (the Victoire has a finer entry and after-run - if I use the latter term correctly) and in rig – the Victoria being available as a sloop or cutter. The Victoire seems to me to derive from a sportier, mainly coastal cruising boat pedigree and the Victoria from more of a blue water pedigree – with perhaps better storage, if a smaller quarterberth?

Anyway, I do hope someone with real knowledge and experience will be along to respond to you soon, as I shall be interested to see what they say. Thanks for ‘introducing’ the Victoire 1044 - interesting!

 

[sailorman]

Koopman designed some very nice boats

 

[JumbleDuck]

Anyway, I do hope someone with real knowledge and experience will be along to respond to you soon, as I shall be interested to see what they say. Thanks for ‘introducing’ the Victoire 1044 - interesting!

Victoria yachts are beautifully made inside.

 

[NealB]

Victoria yachts are beautifully made inside.

I have to disagree with you there, based, I hasten to add, only on the one Victoria 34 that I have been aboard.

The fit out struck me as flimsy (the saloon table, for example, felt very 'under' built), the joinery was mediocre (and I think that's being generous), and, looking in the lockers, the support framing was of some sort of untidily finished soft pine.

Other bits were, indeed, well done eg tidy cabling, double clipped hoses, etc, but the woodwork really put me off.

I wonder if there were different option levels, or if some were home completed?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have to disagree with you there, based, I hasten to add, only on the one Victoria 34 that I have been aboard.

The fit out struck me as flimsy (the saloon table, for example, felt very 'under' built), the joinery was mediocre (and I think that's being generous), and, looking in the lockers, the support framing was of some sort of untidily finished soft pine.

Other bits were, indeed, well done eg tidy cabling, double clipped hoses, etc, but the woodwork really put me off.

I wonder if there were different option levels, or if some were home completed?

Golly. That's interesting. I know a smaller Victoria very well indeed and haven't seen any of those issues. None were home finished, but some were built by Northshore (like the one I know) and some were finished elsewhere ... perhaps that accounts for it. The one I know is now pushing 30 years old and although the inside has clearly aged it has done so gracefully and looks far nicer inside that the average plywood cave of the same age.

 

[Appledore]

In January 1991 PBO included an areticle under the heading 'The New Safety Regs', which was based on the Victoria 34, showing exploded layout diagrams.

I've saied several of them whilst attending my courses with the Forces from Haslar in the early '90's. JSASTC wanted these yachts over and above other builds, to replace their ageing fleet of Contessa 32's, which I've also sailed on. They had to fight long and hard to get the MOD to approve the purchase, but they did. My first impression of the Vic was that after Contessas, she was rather 'plasticy' (?sp), and perhaps less robust than the Contessas where 'soldiers' were concerned. However, I think they have passed the test of time by now.

I once sailed one from Portsmouth to Plymouth, and back via the St Albans Race, which we went through at up to 12 knots. Great fun, and an obviously safe boat. Sorry but that's all I can add.

Geoff

 

[johnalison]

I've not sailed one but I have visited and sailed with one or two Victoires. My impression is that they are of good quality, and are much faster than the older Victorias.

 

[bluevelvet]

Both designs are 30+ years old with the Victoire being slightly older as it started live as the 34 before becoming the 1044 in the nineties. I cannot comment on the Victoria as I have never sailed one although I might have considered one if condition verus asking prices had been realistic in todays market. I bought my 1044 in Holland last year, a 2004 model paying £54K for a lightly used boat. Various V34 are on sale asking between £45-60K for much older yachts. Victoires are an older style but very seaworthy yacht with the builders modernising the interior as much as hull shape will allow.Normal V berth followed by saloon with just under 6'headroom,nice usable galley to port and decent chart table to starboard.With a change to the coach roof aft ( not easily noticeable) and raising the cockpit floor they fitted in a double aft cabin and a well sized toilet/washroom. Whilst most are tiller steered this makes the cockpit a bit small.( I sail 1 or 2 handed most of the time so not really a proplem) Moving around on deck is easy due to mainly flat surfaces. My reefing is all done at the mast which I prefer. The fit and finish of these yachts is excellent and not only on the bits you see. My yacht came rigged as a cutter using jumpers rather than running backstays. However not much is to be had using both headsails at once but as the wind rises I use staysail and reefed main.I have gone to windward in real gale force winds using staysail and tripple reefed main with a balanced helm. During one very windy weekend I intentionally went out with it blowing 40-50 knots with storm jib and fully reefed main, she went to windward ok but I felt a little overpressed as the wind went up. I now have a fourth reef being put into the main. Although being relatively narrow compared to modern yachts she has a ballast ratio of 49% making her stand up very well. Under less extreme winds she proved to be a very slippy and fast yacht for her size again due to the builders increasing mast height by 1.5m for the later yachts. AS with all yachts personal choice is all and I am very happy with mine.

 

[RobBrown]

Don't know the Victoire but the Victoria 34 was a Chuck Paine design, linked with the Frances and a lot built in the yard at Warsash. Love the concept and look of the boat. I think a yachtsman's yacht. Would be my semi-realistic 2nd hand yacht of choice if I had the money to purchase one, but as others have said, most still priced around 60 K or so, quite a lot for a 10m boat that is likely to be 25+ years old now. There is a Victoria/Shadow Yacht Association which has more info on the model range and there is a great extract about Chuck Paine's involvement in the design & construction:

http://www.victoriashadow.co.uk/public/MyYachtDesigns_V34.pdf

I recall that Old Varnish of this parish chose the stretched vesion of the Victoria, the 38, for his sojourn in the South Atlantic.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Don't know the Victoire but the Victoria 34 was a Chuck Paine design, linked with the Frances and a lot built in the yard at Warsash. Love the concept and look of the boat. I think a yachtsman's yacht. Would be my semi-realistic 2nd hand yacht of choice if I had the money to purchase one, but as others have said, most still priced around 60 K or so, quite a lot for a 10m boat that is likely to be 25+ years old now.

Victoria 34 prices stayed very high for a while, but are now falling - I think because many of them have been owned since new by couples who are now selling as age encroaches. Th smaller ones (Frances 26, Victoria 26, Victoria 800, Victoria 30) are getting cheaper too, but not quite as fast ... I suspect that V34 owners are buying them to downsize.

I recall that Old Varnish of this parish chose the stretched vesion of the Victoria, the 38, for his sojourn in the South Atlantic.

Paul Heiney did Cape Horn and back in his V38 ... is he Old Varnish or have two of them done it? There is also a very nice but very rare Frances 38 which is the deckhouse version (as the Frances 34 is of the V34), after which I lust.

 

[NealB]

Thanks for all the comments.

I had a rummage through my stack of old sailing mags last night, and found a review of the V34 by Geoff Pack in YM July 86.

In a generally glowing report, he comments, "the woodwork and joinery let the Victoria down badly..........Much of the joinery didn't meet, and, at times, seemed unnecessarily complicated".

I wondered if he was reviewing exactly the same boat that I looked at, though the photos in the review show teak decks, whereas the one I saw were nice, clear, unadorned, GRP.

I also wonder if she might have been the very first of the class, which in the Chuck Paine article referred to by RobBrown, sounds as if she was fitted out in rather a hurry for the boat show.

Anyway .... thanks again.

For sure, they are two beautiful boats that stand out from the crowd.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I also wonder if she might have been the very first of the class, which in the Chuck Paine article referred to by RobBrown, sounds as if she was fitted out in rather a hurry for the boat show.

I haven't read the article, but I have heard him talk about it. He and a team of craftsmen flew in from the US for a "holiday" in order to get the first V34 finished for th eboat show, and did it in something like two weeks. I would be surprised if he would have been happy with a dud, though, and I am intrigued by the obvious existence of at least one badly-put-together Victoria. The V26 didn't cost 50% more than a Centaur for nothing ...

 

[Goldie]

I can't comment on the Victoire, although I do like the look of the Victoire boats in general. I have however, sailed a fair bit in Victoria 34s of which I know of two variants - the 'normal' version and the 'Sail Training Craft' or 'STC'. From memory, the STC has a larger chart table for teaching, pilot berths both sides in the saloon in lieu of lockers and a different galley arrangement with an enormous wet locker 'bin' aft of the galley on the port side. I think the STC had a narrower quarter berth too, with additional stowage outboard. Further variations were rig (sloop or cutter with a short bowsprit), wheel or tiller steering and at least one had the mainsheet track mounted forward of the sprayhood.

They're good sea boats (I've sailed triple reefed in 45kts with big seas in one) but not greyhounds. My recollection is that they'll give a comfortable ride in most conditions but don't like being over-canvassed and will respond to that by heeling more, going slower and by pulling your arm out of its socket on tiller steered boats. The STCs will probably all have been bought originally as training boats, and although the ones I've sailed have been worked hard, they've stood up pretty well. A good friend owned a beautiful wheel steered example of the normal cruiser version and she was lovely although he seemed to think that with his wheel steering, he didn't have the rudder angles available to him that the tiller steered boats have - possibly subjective though. Either way, she was controllable enough for maneuvering, but not to the same degree as a boat with a short deep fin and a spade rudder. Storage is good, but has tankage under the saloon berths whereas my strong preference is to have storage there and tanks under the cabin sole. The cockpit is a good size although regardless of the steering option chosen, the moulding is shaped to accept a wheel which means waster space/seat length on the tiller steered versions. There's a good cockpit locker port side, a decent anchor locker forward and two useful lockers (one is for gas but has space to spare) under the helmsman's seat.

There's one in my local yard which doesn't seem to have seen the water for a bit and I often wish she'd be sold to a good home!

 

[NealB]

Thank you, Goldie.

I'll do a bit more delving into the STC v 'normal cruiser' variants.

 

[NealB]

I would be surprised if he would have been happy with a dud.

Describing her as ''a dud'' would be hyperbole, as she was a well travelled boat.

Maybe, given the reputation, and the (to me) drop dead gorgeous exterior, I was expecting something really special. What I saw was mediocre, at best.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Describing her as ''a dud'' would be hyperbole, as she was a well travelled boat.

Maybe, given the reputation, and the (to me) drop dead gorgeous exterior, I was expecting something really special. What I saw was mediocre, at best.

That's definitely a dud, by Victoria / Northshore standards!

 

[E39mad]

That's definitely a dud, by Victoria / Northshore standards!

Northshore purely moulded the Victoria range under contract from Victoria Marine who fitted out the boats themselves in Warsash iirc

 

[JumbleDuck]

Northshore purely moulded the Victoria range under contract from Victoria Marine who fitted out the boats themselves in Warsash iirc

Northshore did it all at first, with Victoria taking over the fitting out later.