VHF Receivers with Integrated GPS?

[SurferShane]

I am looking at buying a new VHF set somewhere around the specs of the Icom 504/5. The real reason I am swaying toward this model is because of it’s slightly higher water resistance rating. Regardless, Standard Horizon have introduced the HX 850S - VHF DSC Marine Hand Held Transceiver with integrated GPS. Considering a lot of mobile phones now have inbuilt GPS receivers the addition is not really rocket science or a major market breakthrough. This really makes me wonder whether – or more to the point when - the next generation of fixed mounted sets will also contain an integrated GPS to compliment the DSC function etc?

At the moment most sets need to be plugged into an external GPS. I suppose another advantage of having an inbuilt GPS might be the mast ariel aids reception in my steel boat and I don’t have to go running any more external ariels? Due the above, I am almost considering buying a cheap second-hand Icom set while I wait for the new technology to be released? (Noting my current set is not water resistant and on the blink!)

Any comments or industry rumours?

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Standard Horizon DO...

In the States, SH sells a combo VHF/GPS/Chartplotter - actually two of them, with different sized plotter screens. These are NOT CE approved for use on EU flagged boats. And they only integrate with one make of US-made radar (SiTex), which is only sold by a few grey-market importers here in the UK.

However, there are exporters in the US (on ebay.com, not ebay.co.ui) that are exporting said VHF/GPS/plotter units to the UK, and with the exchange rates the price is still attractive.

A few observations:

1) SiTex radar is OK, not the best, especially it's integration with the AIS and plotter screens on SH plotters. Search these forums for more threads on that...

2) The unit is LARGE - the price you pay for radio and plotter in a package.

3) The "not licensed for EU **** is"...well, depends on how fine you like to cut it. Certainly it WORKS, as it would work an any US yacht visiting here. I think you lose a couple of UK channels used for some marinas and race control - again, there are recent threads in these forums. But for most use, it will be just fine.

I don't see the point of putting a GPS in a VHF without a chartplotter, unless it's a handheld. And that drives the cost and complexity of a single unit up. Most boats have chartplotters these days, and therefore they have a GPS...so adding one to the VHF is just duplication...driving the cost of your unit up with no real market function.


PS - Just saw you're in OZ. While I am fairly sure you can get the VHF/GPS/plotter shipped there from the US, the availability of SiTex radar there is totally unknown. And I really don't know your marine channels and if the VHF would pose a problem there.

 

[SurferShane]

In the States, SH sells a combo VHF/GPS/Chartplotter - actually two of them, with different sized plotter screens. These are NOT CE approved for use on EU flagged boats. And they only integrate with one make of US-made radar (SiTex), which is only sold by a few grey-market importers here in the UK.

However, there are exporters in the US (on ebay.com, not ebay.co.ui) that are exporting said VHF/GPS/plotter units to the UK, and with the exchange rates the price is still attractive.

A few observations:

1) SiTex radar is OK, not the best, especially it's integration with the AIS and plotter screens on SH plotters. Search these forums for more threads on that...

2) The unit is LARGE - the price you pay for radio and plotter in a package.

3) The "not licensed for EU **** is"...well, depends on how fine you like to cut it. Certainly it WORKS, as it would work an any US yacht visiting here. I think you lose a couple of UK channels used for some marinas and race control - again, there are recent threads in these forums. But for most use, it will be just fine.

I don't see the point of putting a GPS in a VHF without a chartplotter, unless it's a handheld. And that drives the cost and complexity of a single unit up. Most boats have chartplotters these days, and therefore they have a GPS...so adding one to the VHF is just duplication...driving the cost of your unit up with no real market function.


PS - Just saw you're in OZ. While I am fairly sure you can get the VHF/GPS/plotter shipped there from the US, the availability of SiTex radar there is totally unknown. And I really don't know your marine channels and if the VHF would pose a problem there.

Thanks for the reply. While I was really just looking for a dedicated VHF receiver/transmitter, the VHF/GPS/Plotter combination sounds like a good idea and maybe even a step ahead of what I was expecting? It’s almost like how I once said to an IT friend that it is inevitable that PC and mobile phones will one day become the same. Now you have the I-phone. Big difference with marine technology is the price and I am looking to minimise the outlay, whilst hopefully also keeping the boat fool proof.

One thing I did consider on the GPS duplication point is that you need to connect the VHF to a GPS for it to transmit your coordinates in the distress signal mode as does the standard horizon handheld? The point is the Standard Horizon is no more expensive than any other handheld. At any rate, I would be happy to pay an extra couple of dollars. For someone like who wants to keep the boat nice and simple a similar fixed unit also means less wires connecting to various devices and the security of having a back-up GPS in a very water resistant unit connected directly to a distress function?

It is interesting you mentioned how about myself being in Australia, you really don't know my marine channels and if the VHF would pose a problem here. The same IT/electronics qualified mate raised the same issue. One reason I was looking at the Icom 504 which you can get at a good price “re-manufactured” is that the full specs seem to indicate the unit is already tuned to both American and International channels. The 505 is the near identical Australian released model. You would also have to think that a more expensive set that works in the Northern hemisphere is fine for the south? Otherwise how many sets would you need to do a circumnavigation? As we might be going off on a tangent I could either contact the manufacturer or split the thread maybe after searching for the ones you mention?

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Thinking about it...

Re-reading your post, I noticed something...you seem to believe that the chartplotter's GPS antenna is really just an antenna. For a very large number of them, this is NOT the case...they actually have the receiver electronics embedded with the antenna, in the base of the "mushroom". The GPS signal is a very faint one, and I do not believe it could be conducted down from a masthead antenna without problems - hence why most external GPS antennas have the receiver in the base. To have a "GPS antenna" for your VHF, you would need another "mushroom" GPS antenna, or split the data output from the existing chartplotter GPS antenna - which could be in NMEA 1803, 2000, or often something proprietary. Ummm, good luck getting that to work easily, unless they are from the same manufacturer.

As you have a metal hull, you obviously cannot use an internal GPS for the VHF DSC, which I am only stating for those just joining...

And lastly, external "mushroom" GPS antennas are not just a few quid...I seem to think about £50 - £100.

So...I'm thinking that the two extra wires from the chartplotter to the VHF radio look a lot simpler and cheaper...

 

[nimbusgb]

Re-reading your post, I noticed something...you seem to believe that the chartplotter's GPS antenna is really just an antenna.

It bugs me that the accepted term for the mushrooms now appears to be 'antenna' when as you say they are actually receivers. It does lead to confusion as to how things really operate.

 

[SurferShane]

Re-reading your post, I noticed something...you seem to believe that the chartplotter's GPS antenna is really just an antenna.....,,,,,

To clarify any confusion what I am saying is I am wondering when fixed/mounted VHF transmitters/receivers such as the Icom 504 http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/mountedvhf/m504/specifications.aspx will include a built in GPS receiver as does the Standard Horizon HX 850S - VHF DSC Marine Hand Held http://www.vxstd.com.au/marine/hx_850s.html Sets like the Icom 504 need to be connected to an external GPS for the DSC to include coordinates as part of the distress call. On the other hand, this GPS receiver is a built in feature on the newer Standard Horizon HX 850S. The Standard Horizon model also conveniently doubles as a back-up water resistant GPS.

When I said

“One thing I did consider on the GPS duplication point is that you need to connect the VHF to a GPS for it to transmit your coordinates in the distress signal mode as does the standard horizon handheld?”. ​

I was talking about models such as the Icom 504 as per the original post and NOT referring to the SH sells a combo VHF/GPS/Chartplotter. As stated this integrated chartplotter model is a bit far beyond my budget and I am simply wondering when some fixed VHF radios will included a GPS receiver as does the Standard Horizon HX 850S handheld model.

I hope this makes this muddle a bit clearer? Or maybe the whole muddle is the reason the companies have not yet bothered to put GPS receivers in the fixed mount VHF transmitter/receivers?

 

[Bilgediver]

I hope this makes this muddle a bit clearer? Or maybe the whole muddle is the reason the companies have not yet bothered to put GPS receivers in the fixed mount VHF transmitter/receivers?

As said above in the thread a large percentage of chart plotters do not actually have the GPS built into the chart plotter, it is built into the mushroom and the connecting cable is not coax but ordinary conductors conducting Nmea sentences.

I would expect this would be the same situation with a radio which included GPS as the GPS signals cannot easily be handled by a VHF antenna so with your steel boat you would probably still need two holes for feeds to Radio GPS and VHF. As most boats already have a GPS either stand alone or as part of a plotter then there is little reason to include one in a fixed VHF where it would require a second mushroom unit.

The one mushroom for the existing plotter can easily deal with an AIS, Radar Radio as well as the Plotter.

 

[SurferShane]

As said above in the thread a large percentage of chart plotters do not actually have the GPS built into the chart plotter, it is built into the mushroom and the connecting cable is not coax but ordinary conductors conducting Nmea sentences.

I would expect this would be the same situation with a radio which included GPS as the GPS signals cannot easily be handled by a VHF antenna so with your steel boat you would probably still need two holes for feeds to Radio GPS and VHF. As most boats already have a GPS either stand alone or as part of a plotter then there is little reason to include one in a fixed VHF where it would require a second mushroom unit.

The one mushroom for the existing plotter can easily deal with an AIS, Radar Radio as well as the Plotter.

I get exactly where you are coming from and likewise have been considering buying an external GPS ariel for the navigation program in my laptop so it works as a real time GPS plotter.

Still, I wonder how Standard Horizon has managed to include a GPS in a handheld VHF set? Although in the brochure it distinctly only has one ariel, maybe if you pull it apart it indeed has two ariels; another hiding inside or even adjacent/entwined with the single ariel? This might explain why it is impracticable to transfer the same technology to fixed VHF sets?

Any communications electronics experts onboard?

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

I get exactly where you are coming from and likewise have been considering buying an external GPS ariel for the navigation program in my laptop so it works as a real time GPS plotter.

Still, I wonder how Standard Horizon has managed to include a GPS in a handheld VHF set? Although in the brochure it distinctly only has one ariel, maybe if you pull it apart it indeed has two ariels; another hiding inside or even adjacent/entwined with the single ariel? This might explain why it is impracticable to transfer the same technology to fixed VHF sets?

Any communications electronics experts onboard?

It's isn't a function of needing a seperate antenna per se, it is a function of needing the GPS recieving circuits very, very close to their antenna. The GPS signal is very, very faint, and it needs to be hugely amplified IMMEDIATELY upon being received by the antenna. It is so faint that it cannot travel down any length of wire more than an inch or two, and that wire must be heavily shielded from interference. Hence, they put the amplifier into the same case as the antenna. Once you have put the power-hungry amplifier into the antenna, you might as well put the entire receiver in their as well, so that you are passing digital signals which are less prone to interference.

Hence, the handheld can use one antenna, because the entire radio and GPS are all right in the same package...

 

[SurferShane]

It's isn't a function of needing a seperate antenna per se, it is a function of needing the GPS recieving circuits very, very close to their antenna. The GPS signal is very, very faint, and it needs to be hugely amplified IMMEDIATELY upon being received by the antenna. It is so faint that it cannot travel down any length of wire more than an inch or two, and that wire must be heavily shielded from interference. Hence, they put the amplifier into the same case as the antenna. Once you have put the power-hungry amplifier into the antenna, you might as well put the entire receiver in their as well, so that you are passing digital signals which are less prone to interference.

Hence, the handheld can use one antenna, because the entire radio and GPS are all right in the same package...

Thanks – that is the exact answer to the question. If you were over here I would shout you a beer!

 

[bitman]

Fixed VHF incl GPS -> ribs

i still don't understand why there are NO fixed VHF sets with build in GPS as these radio's should be perfect for rib users and on mobo's with flying bridges...

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

i still don't understand why there are NO fixed VHF sets with build in GPS as these radio's should be perfect for rib users and on mobo's with flying bridges...

Define what you mean by GPS? The OP was looking JUST for GPS data to power the DSC in his VHF, not a separate display. Given the thread above, it's too much hassle compared to wiring up the GPS chartplotter.

In my first post above, I discussed a combined VHF/GPS/Chartplotter, with a normal chartplotter display and an in-built VHF radio. It is available, you have to import it from the States via a known seller on eBay.com - who will happily ship it to you here. Don't remember his name, but he's in the Midwest, Chicago or thereabouts. There are even two sizes of screen available.

Right now I think the main problem with all-in-ones has been that GPS chartplotter technology has been evolving much faster than VHF, so the vendors think they can sell you (and you might want to BUY) a new GPS every few years, but a good VHF might last a decade or two. If you have separate units, no big deal to upgrade, but if you have an all-in-one the expense is considerable...

I recently played with a touchscreen GPS (something I vowed I would hate...silly me!) and came away thinking that GPS's STILL have a long way to evolve in the next few years. I can easily see touchscreens everywhere, faster scrolling via graphics accelerator chips, better integration of satellite imagery, better Radar/AIS integration, integration with active radar transponders (just a flashing icon even when active), and much, much better screens - AMOLED or colour e-ink in sizes up to 15". I could also see a chartplotter based on Android, running Android apps right along side the GPS chartplotter (weather forecasting, route planning, etc.).

If you haven't played with a Garmin 750 (touchscreen, graphics accelerator chip) with a chart that has embedded satellite imagery, go try it. Now imagine THAT on steroids...you could expect that in 2-3 years.

Now, do you REALLY want to integrate?

 

[Bilgediver]

Still, I wonder how Standard Horizon has managed to include a GPS in a handheld VHF set? Although in the brochure it distinctly only has one ariel, maybe if you pull it apart it indeed has two ariels; another hiding inside or even adjacent/entwined with the single ariel? This might explain why it is impracticable to transfer the same technology to fixed VHF sets?

Any communications electronics experts onboard?

Many mobile phones have GPs within and it is contained on a wee micro chip.
I suspect the GPS antenna is constructed into the case of the hand held and no doubt if you put your hand in some illogical place it ceases to function!

 

[bitman]

Define what you mean by GPS? The OP was looking JUST for GPS data to power the DSC in his VHF, not a separate display. Given the thread above, it's too much hassle compared to wiring up the GPS chartplotter.

In my first post above, I discussed a combined VHF/GPS/Chartplotter, with a normal chartplotter display and an in-built VHF radio. It is available, you have to import it from the States via a known seller on eBay.com - who will happily ship it to you here. Don't remember his name, but he's in the Midwest, Chicago or thereabouts. There are even two sizes of screen available.

Right now I think the main problem with all-in-ones has been that GPS chartplotter technology has been evolving much faster than VHF, so the vendors think they can sell you (and you might want to BUY) a new GPS every few years, but a good VHF might last a decade or two. If you have separate units, no big deal to upgrade, but if you have an all-in-one the expense is considerable...

I recently played with a touchscreen GPS (something I vowed I would hate...silly me!) and came away thinking that GPS's STILL have a long way to evolve in the next few years. I can easily see touchscreens everywhere, faster scrolling via graphics accelerator chips, better integration of satellite imagery, better Radar/AIS integration, integration with active radar transponders (just a flashing icon even when active), and much, much better screens - AMOLED or colour e-ink in sizes up to 15". I could also see a chartplotter based on Android, running Android apps right along side the GPS chartplotter (weather forecasting, route planning, etc.).

If you haven't played with a Garmin 750 (touchscreen, graphics accelerator chip) with a chart that has embedded satellite imagery, go try it. Now imagine THAT on steroids...you could expect that in 2-3 years.

Now, do you REALLY want to integrate?

what i mean is a VHF radio with a build in GPS receiver so that you dont' have to wire a separate GPS as the OP was talking about. i do NOT mean a build-in chart plotter etc.
I mean the same as the Standard Horizon HX851E handheld but then a fixed VHF. easy to install and ready to use in a emergency; GPS feeds directly the DSC no extra wiring needed. of course i know it's useless in a steel or aluminium boat hence i write nice to have on a rib or flying bridge mobo but also GRP boat.

hoop this clears my post.

 

[RestlessL]

what i mean is a VHF radio with a build in GPS receiver so that you dont' have to wire a separate GPS as the OP was talking about. i do NOT mean a build-in chart plotter etc.
I mean the same as the Standard Horizon HX851E handheld but then a fixed VHF. easy to install and ready to use in a emergency; GPS feeds directly the DSC no extra wiring needed. of course i know it's useless in a steel or aluminium boat hence i write nice to have on a rib or flying bridge mobo but also GRP boat.

hoop this clears my post.

Whilst this is a simple solution, and would give the VHF a position for an emergency call, it would miss other benefits of DSC, namely the ability to show the position of a received distress call (or any other DSC position report) on the chartplotter. Far better, in my view, to have a 2-way connection between the chart plotter and the VHF.

John

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

I mean the same as the Standard Horizon HX851E handheld but then a fixed VHF. easy to install and ready to use in a emergency; GPS feeds directly the DSC no extra wiring needed. of course i know it's useless in a steel or aluminium boat hence i write nice to have on a rib or flying bridge mobo but also GRP boat.

hoop this clears my post.

Well, the Standard Horizon handheld VHF with DSC and GPS retails for nearly £100 more here in the UK compared to similar SH VHFs. It's just not clear there is THAT much of a market of people willing to spend £100 to avoid connecting two wires - after all, you have to run power, coax antenna and possibly second mike and/or speaker connections to your radio anyway...why wimp out on two more wires?

If you are putting it on a fly bridge, then get the SH combo VHF/GPS/plotter from the States...because you will want a full display out there in any case. The problem is that is after using the Garmin 750 and similar touchscreen plotters the SH models really look dated - not surprising, because most haven't been updated in 4 to 5 years. Solid though, would certainly trust them, great value for money...but dated.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

All the mobile phone, etc. GPS modules I've seen are based on SIRF gps chips and the antenna and receiver circuitry is built into a very small pcb or encased module - they're only about inch or two long and less than an inch wide for the smallest ones.

At that size and given the varied uses they're put to it's easier to shield the gps antenna and protect from an inbuilt transmitter than to build in a splitter - it would restrict the design of the 'phone/radio/whatever too much.

I could be wrong but I believe nearly all the 'phone manufacturers buy in receivers rather than design from scratch.

 

[Dannyelvis1230]

hiya I woder if you can help me please

Hiya all I have Marine hand held VHS radio. Model Ic-M15Ea and I need a battey for it can anyone help with any information on where to get one ive search internet with no success thanks danny