VHF Radio licence

[dgadee]

I do not overestimate my contribution to the world of education. I leave that kind of attitude to those that sneer.

I've shown literally hundreds of people how to operate a marine V H F radio to the standards required in the RY A Day Skipper syllabus. Not one single person has ever decided it was unnecessary and many of them have gone on to obtain an operators certificate. So who is out of step here?

You said yourself that you 'couldn't be bothered'. You've called yourself lazy.

Not sure what your point is. How do you know they didn't think it was unnecessary? Have you surveyed them? I am sure if the Day Skipper requires a VHF qualification, then from that point of view, it is necessary. But for using a relatively simple form of radio communication was a one day course necessary? I doubt it.

 

[dgadee]

I do not overestimate my contribution to the world of education. I leave that kind of attitude to those that sneer.

I've shown literally hundreds of people how to operate a marine V H F radio to the standards required in the RY A Day Skipper syllabus. Not one single person has ever decided it was unnecessary and many of them have gone on to obtain an operators certificate. So who is out of step here?

You said yourself that you 'couldn't be bothered'. You've called yourself lazy.

It doesn't follow. I spend my time as I see the need. That doesn't imply laziness. You certainly don't know me.

 

[ylop]

We have evidence (above) that young children are capable of using VHF effectively. Level of P7? I think you over estimate your contribution to the world of education.

If I understood the "evidence" was that children successfully use the radio to call the lock keeper? You might want to go and look at the syllabus for the course again - there's a bit more too it than that.

It kind of scuppers the argument that beginners need quals when beginners are specifically excluded from quals.

Beginners are not excluded. Under 16's are excluded. *Most* beginners on boats with VHF will be >16.

My kids borrow the tender to rag around but can't do PB2 until they're 12.

I don't have an objection to setting 12 as the age for a PB2 course. Do you honestly think the average 9 yr old could do the course and "pass" and safely operate a boat in the scenarios its designed to cover? could they keep up with the pace of a typical PB2 course?

They can do a PB1 course from 8.

Your argument is like a farmer complaining that his son has been driving the landrover round the fields for years but can't sit their driving test under they are 17.

They could really do with using the VHF on channels other than M1/M2 but they can't get a qual in that until they're 16.

I do agree that is not optimal, although I suspect the powers that be are horrified that anyone under 18 is ever left out of reach of an adult.

I look forward to the day then they borrow the big (well small) boat without me and I would guess that might happen in their mid teens - but they can't do YM until they're 18.

But only 16 (so mid teens!) for Day Skipper. Were you thinking they'd be sailing in the dark or making prolonged passages before that?

 

[Mark-1]

If I understood the "evidence" was that children successfully use the radio to call the lock keeper? You might want to go and look at the syllabus for the course again - there's a bit more too it than that.

Beginners are not excluded. Under 16's are excluded. *Most* beginners on boats with VHF will be >16.

I don't have an objection to setting 12 as the age for a PB2 course. Do you honestly think the average 9 yr old could do the course and "pass" and safely operate a boat in the scenarios its designed to cover? could they keep up with the pace of a typical PB2 course?

They can do a PB1 course from 8.

Your argument is like a farmer complaining that his son has been driving the landrover round the fields for years but can't sit their driving test under they are 17.

I do agree that is not optimal, although I suspect the powers that be are horrified that anyone under 18 is ever left out of reach of an adult.

But only 16 (so mid teens!) for Day Skipper. Were you thinking they'd be sailing in the dark or making prolonged passages before that?

I'm not saying I want these courses to be available to kids, I'm saying they're beginners who can't do many of these courses even if they wanted, and they manage fine.

Given that, it's a bit pointless discussing what kids of diferent ages can or can't handle but I can't resist so, here goes:

I gave the example of the lock but you can be an assistant dinghy instructor at 14 which can mean a vast amount of unsupervised VHF use albeit on M1/M2 - more than I do in five years and in much more complicated situations.

PB2 is trivial. An 8yo could easily handle the practical aspects. The class room stuff is general knowledge and no more difficult than RYA YSS. From memory a lot of the classroom stuff doesn't need to be learned just stated by the instructor.

Anyway, apologies for derailing the thread with my rather silly digression. Sorry all, I'll leave the last word for someone else.

 

[ylop]

I'm not saying I want these courses to be available to kids, I'm saying they're beginners who can't do many of these courses even if they wanted, and they manage fine.

I’m not sure that makes sense, the only beginners who can’t do the course are kids, so clearly kids IS the issue. Saying they manage just fine so all beginners will manage just fine is probably misleading - very few kids are left entirely to their own devices. Somewhere there is an adult keeping a watchful eye.

I gave the example of the lock but you can be an assistant dinghy instructor at 14 which can mean a vast amount of unsupervised VHF use albeit on M1/M2 - more than I do in five years and in much more complicated situations.

That is an interesting anomaly. I’m not sure how much VHF a dinghy instructor never mind an assistant instructor actually uses (back when I learned VHFs in waterproof bags were only just emerging and certainly not used by 14y olds). But M1/2 suffices for the instructional aspect. Presumably no ADI is being left to their own devices so is not ordinarily expected to make a Mayday call nor potentially respond to, or relay a Mayday they hear?

PB2 is trivial. An 8yo could easily handle the practical aspects.

I dispute that - it seems trivial to people who are used to being around boats, take a total novice and throw them on a PB2 course with no prep and they need every minute they are given. Teaching kids is slower and harder. Presumably there is a reason that the RYA don’t think PB2 is suitable but PB1 is. I’m not sure how many 8 yr olds you’ve taught but they are bloody hard work. The question is not if some 8 yr olds might manage but rather if a typical 8 yr old is likely to get through the course at its normal delivery pace.

I learned to sail dinghies before the current YSS was separated from the adult syllabus so I’m not sure exactly what is in/out of scope. I recall being quite far in before we were anchoring, I think 8 yr olds are only just learning times tables - not sure they are ready for rule of 12ths or scope estimates.

There are probably some physical strength parts - recovering Mob, pulling in an anchor on a larger boat, lifting a fuel can, pull starting or tilting an outboard which if not actually part of the course could make it difficult or unsafe to teach typical 8 yr olds the essentials of everything they should be able to do to operate a powerboat safely.

The class room stuff is general knowledge and no more difficult than RYA YSS. From memory a lot of the classroom stuff doesn't need to be learned just stated by the instructor.

Ah, so the aspiration is not that people on the course actually understood anything so long as they were there for the slides! I appreciate that might be the technical definition in the syllabus but further up the thread we were hearing how pointless the SRC course is because there is stuff you don’t actually need to know. Both can’t be desirable.

No young person is prevented from learning any of this - their parents can ( or can pay an instructor to) teach them all of it at a relevant pace and style to their needs. The only thing they can’t do is get the certificates. I’m sure if there was a strong demand for instruction in under 12’s that the RYA would have formulated a YPBS similar to the YSS with pace, resources and content appropriate to the needs. In reality very few people are going to give their primary school age children the keys to a power boat and let them use it without supervision or in ways beyond the PB1 syllabus.

 

[requiem]

As a casual observation, relatively young children are often able to pass the examinations for an amateur radio license. Even apart from that, I suspect many[1] here learnt to operate the dials on the television and make telephone calls at a fairly young age.

[1] At least, of those who weren't already adults when such devices were first introduced.

 

[dunedin]

Isn’t it quaintly British (ie completely bonkers) that you need a course and past a test to operate a VHF radio - but don’t need ANY training let alone qualifications to drive a 50 foot powerboat at 50 knots with 8 mates on board.

 

[capnsensible]

Isn’t it quaintly British (ie completely bonkers) that you need a course and past a test to operate a VHF radio - but don’t need ANY training let alone qualifications to drive a 50 foot powerboat at 50 knots with 8 mates on board.

Nooo! You will get the usual suspects beating their cheats in rage and exploding with indignation if you dare even hint at compulsory qualification for leisure boaters!!!

 

[dunedin]

Nooo! You will get the usual suspects beating their cheats in rage and exploding with indignation if you dare even hint at compulsory qualification for leisure boaters!!!

But why a compulsory qualification for a radio set - its bonkers

 

[PeterWright]

Who presumably didn't actually have the authority to ask. I certainly wouldn't show my certs to a marina.

The burden of proof will be on them to show that you were operating it for non-emergency purposes which would be a real challenge to show beyond doubt.

If you refuse to show the marina proof of your competence to operate yor boat ad it's equipment, the marina may consider that grounds to refuse the presence of your boat in their facility. They are under noobligation to accept your request for a berth.

 

[ylop]

If you refuse to show the marina proof of your competence to operate yor boat ad it's equipment, the marina may consider that grounds to refuse the presence of your boat in their facility. They are under noobligation to accept your request for a berth.

No marina I have ever been in has ever asked to see my paperwork, and they have all seen how incompetent I am from my grand entry… the only* qualification they have ever wanted was a small card with the word visa in the corner and 16 digits across the middle!

*one marina did one ask me for the name of my insurer (not the policy number or actual sight of the policy though).

 

[[70521]]

A fascinating thread.

While VHF is based on some "well established technologies", some may say old, they do work all over the world.

As long as we can raise the mic to vaguely near our mouths and press the PPT switch somebody with the correct equipment and within range should hear us. I am quite sure that won't happen with a mobile phone 20 NM offshore.

I was first introduced to RT as a spotty 21 year old on a Home Office network and instructed by some aging Royal Signals staff, well they looked old to me at the time, on its use. They were quite clear, get on the net, state your message clearly, hear your reply, acknowledge your reply and get off the net. Messages were 'crisp and short'.

That spotty 21 year old found pressing the PTT switch for the first time was not easy! Some of the transmissions that I have made include messages about serious injury and death, I always found it difficult to formulate and transmit such sentences.

Ten years later I was working professionally with some serving Royal Signals and over coffee a discussion on 'current' RT procedures came up, things had not changed.

In my humble opinion the RYA course, warts and all, give people the confidence to use a VHF set with confidence and some form of professionalism in a manner that is understood across the globe. Be that a ship that you feel is uncomfortably close 100 NM offshore, a marina, the CG of the UK or any other nation or asking VTS for permission to enter a port.

The sad thing is few people actually use most of the DSC functions! How many use Group Calls when cruising in company? How many can request the lat and long of another boat who does not have AIS, but has a DSC radio? Whoever does a DSC call to another boat?

Currently, I sail out of a military port, Plymouth, and it is always interesting to hear the differences in transmissions between military and civilian shipping.

p.s. When checking into any port having folder with a wadge of documentation always looks like you are on your game and have come prepared

 

[shan]

I'm curious. Has anyone on here ever been asked for their vhf license? in 40-odd years, I've never been asked, either in the UK or elsewhere in the world.

Got asked for it when doing the paperwork for the Livrette for our little day boat in Portugal.

 

[capnsensible]

A fascinating thread.

While VHF is based on some "well established technologies", some may say old, they do work all over the world.

As long as we can raise the mic to vaguely near our mouths and press the PPT switch somebody with the correct equipment and within range should hear us. I am quite sure that won't happen with a mobile phone 20 NM offshore.

I was first introduced to RT as a spotty 21 year old on a Home Office network and instructed by some aging Royal Signals staff, well they looked old to me at the time, on its use. They were quite clear, get on the net, state your message clearly, hear your reply, acknowledge your reply and get off the net. Messages were 'crisp and short'.

That spotty 21 year old found pressing the PTT switch for the first time was not easy! Some of the transmissions that I have made include messages about serious injury and death, I always found it difficult to formulate and transmit such sentences.

Ten years later I was working professionally with some serving Royal Signals and over coffee a discussion on 'current' RT procedures came up, things had not changed.

In my humble opinion the RYA course, warts and all, give people the confidence to use a VHF set with confidence and some form of professionalism in a manner that is understood across the globe. Be that a ship that you feel is uncomfortably close 100 NM offshore, a marina, the CG of the UK or any other nation or asking VTS for permission to enter a port.

The sad thing is few people actually use most of the DSC functions! How many use Group Calls when cruising in company? How many can request the lat and long of another boat who does not have AIS, but has a DSC radio? Whoever does a DSC call to another boat?

Currently, I sail out of a military port, Plymouth, and it is always interesting to hear the differences in transmissions between military and civilian shipping.

p.s. When checking into any port having folder with a wadge of documentation always looks like you are on your game and have come prepared

Top tip re paperwork. I've cleared in and out of many ports all over the place. Having the minimum papers in an easy to use folder is best. Using clear plastic envelopes in the folder aids easy identification of the right bits. Ships registration document and insurance document are the priorities along with crew passports.

Also hady is a crib sheet with details of the above on is very useful so you can fill in all the mountain of forms whilst your key documents and passports are being photocopied.

Top thread drift.....

Back on a bit, most people as you point out get microphone shy when needing to make even a routine call on vhf.

 

[capnsensible]

Add to above, your clearance from the last port, Zarpe. Outside of Europe, generally.

 

[penberth3]

....I was first introduced to RT as a spotty 21 year old on a Home Office network and instructed by some aging Royal Signals staff, well they looked old to me at the time, on its use. They were quite clear, get on the net, state your message clearly, hear your reply, acknowledge your reply and get off the net. Messages were 'crisp and short'.....

Excellent advice there. Pass messages, don't start conversations.

 

[dgadee]

Excellent advice there. Pass messages, don't start conversations.

And you need a full one day course for that sort of level of information? Jeez.

 

[Egret]

The course is a lot more comprehensive and detailed now, than it was when I did it in 1980, so takes the full day.

 

[[70521]]

Excellent advice there. Pass messages, don't start conversations.

VTS, know as Longroom in, Plymouth have some interesting pro-words. Message, Question, Request and others. They work extremely well. While not strictly for leisure sailors do make it clear what they need.

Several years ago I called up Dover VTS as instructed in Reeds. The service they provided was fantastic all done with simple instructions - we even had a laugh when I said I was a Dover Virgin - the yacht that entered without calling them got a polite, but extremely firm bollocking.

 

[ylop]

And you need a full one day course for that sort of level of information? Jeez.

You sat the course you must know what was covered! I appreciate that some people are smarter than average and so progress through the material quicker than others. If that was you, then presumably unless you were in a group of people who were all unusually good you also saw the average level of understanding in the other participants? If you spent a whole day on the training and the only things you remember were how to press the red button and keep comms brief, you might be the reason it takes so long!

I do actually agree with you that some of the stuff that was covered was less relevant for your average leisure yachtsman BUT thats what happens when you have one qualification with (a degree of) standardisation across countries, and with the same qualification applying to everyone who wants to use VHF marine frequencies.