VHF 16 Radio Checks

[chanelyacht]

So how does the coastguard get round that one? Surely it would be a waste of a facility to exclude the NCI (if they are) from communicating on ch16 in appropriate circumstances...

The MCA's Ofcom license (yes, they have to have one) is for the full range of marine frequencies - 156.000 to 163.000, plus 121.5 and some other air frequencies for SAR coordination.

Why would the NCI need to use Ch16? (and I speak as one of the NCI's first Directors in 1995). There is no requirement.

 

[Bru]

Thanks for the added info Channelyacht, it wasn't entirely clear in the doc I found!

Would NCI not potentially use 16 if they could hear an incident and HMCG couldn't? (Perhaps due to aerial failure as has happened). Or would that be covered by common sense i.e, nobody would give them a ticking off for using it in an emergency situation?

 

[l'escargot]

The MCA's Ofcom license (yes, they have to have one) is for the full range of marine frequencies - 156.000 to 163.000, plus 121.5 and some other air frequencies for SAR coordination.

Why would the NCI need to use Ch16? (and I speak as one of the NCI's first Directors in 1995). There is no requirement.

Perhaps for any one of the reasons anyone else with a vhf may need to use it. To contact a vessel that they may see heading towards a hazard, a mayday relay, or to respond to a vessel mistakenly calling them on 16 and direct them to the correct channel? They would seem to be an ideal resource to keep a listening watch on 16 in some areas too. A whole host of reasons. Why would you want to prevent such a resource accessing Ch16, that every other person can use freely...

 

[prv]

I would've thought a coast station licence is to allow use of additional channels not to restrict use of already available channels

Well, you think wrong then, and the other channels are not "already available".

Every radio station license, whether ship, shore, aircraft, or shopping centre security, specifies what frequencies the station is allowed to use. Ship VHF stations are allowed to use all the normal marine VHF channels that we're familiar with. Coast station licenses will be allowed specific channels depending on their function, so a marina has only channel 80, an oil terminal probably has one of the standard port operations channels plus maybe ch16, and the Coastguard apparently have everything, which makes sense. The NCI has ch65, and apparently ch0 with CG permission, and if that's all their license says then that's all they're allowed to use. They don't have a Ship Station license (cannot have one because they're not a ship) so they don't have the same channel allocations that a Ship Station license would give.

I would hope all NCI watch keepers hold a personal VHF cert.

It's irrelevant whether they do or don't - they're operating a station which is licensed for ch65 (and ch0 with permission) only.

I think your confusion here arises from a fundamental misconception that the VHF operator's certificate is what gives you the right to use all the normal marine VHF channels. It is not.

What gives you that right on your boat is the boat's Ship Station license. That license also has a condition on it saying that you need the operator's cert, which is why you had to go and do the course, but it's the station license that gives the permission and sets out the available channels, not the operator's certificate.

If you leave your boat and go to a shore site equipped with a radio, your use of it is subject to that station's license, not your boat's. If the station is a marina licensed only for ch80, then ch80 is all you can legally use from it. You don't get to somehow carry around a personal channel allocation based on your operator's ticket.

Pete

 

[prv]

Perhaps for any one of the reasons anyone else with a vhf may need to use it. To contact a vessel that they may see heading towards a hazard, a mayday relay, or to respond to a vessel mistakenly calling them on 16 and direct them to the correct channel? They would seem to be an ideal resource to keep a listening watch on 16 in some areas too. A whole host of reasons. Why would you want to prevent such a resource accessing Ch16, that every other person can use freely...

I happen to think you're right, but we're discussing what is, not what should be.

Pete

 

[l'escargot]

Well, you think wrong then, and the other channels are not "already available".

Every radio station license, whether ship, shore, aircraft, or shopping centre security, specifies what frequencies the station is allowed to use. Ship VHF stations are allowed to use all the normal marine VHF channels that we're familiar with. Coast station licenses will be allowed specific channels depending on their function, so a marina has only channel 80, an oil terminal probably has one of the standard port operations channels plus maybe ch16, and the Coastguard apparently have everything, which makes sense. The NCI has ch65, and apparently ch0 with CG permission, and if that's all their license says then that's all they're allowed to use. They don't have a Ship Station license (cannot have one because they're not a ship) so they don't have the same channel allocations that a Ship Station license would give.



It's irrelevant whether they do or don't - they're operating a station which is licensed for ch65 (and ch0 with permission) only.

I think your confusion here arises from a fundamental misconception that the VHF operator's certificate is what gives you the right to use all the normal marine VHF channels. It is not.

What gives you that right on your boat is the boat's Ship Station license. That license also has a condition on it saying that you need the operator's cert, which is why you had to go and do the course, but it's the station license that gives the permission and sets out the available channels, not the operator's certificate.

If you leave your boat and go to a shore site equipped with a radio, your use of it is subject to that station's license, not your boat's. If the station is a marina licensed only for ch80, then ch80 is all you can legally use from it. You don't get to somehow carry around a personal channel allocation based on your operator's ticket.

Pete

I think you are making a lot of assumptions there - there are posts here from people with knowledge of NCI that say they have Ch16 and there is even mention on their website of "monitoring" 16 - I think you might be discussing what you think, not necessarily what you know - but thanks for sharing your thoughts even if you can't give a definitive answer...:encouragement:

 

[prv]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions there - there are posts here from people with knowledge of NCI that say they have Ch16 and there is even mention on their website of "monitoring" 16 - I think you might be discussing what you think, not necessarily what you know

I am certainly making some assumptions about the NCI specifically, because I don't know what's in their license, and I'm happy to be corrected on the details of that. But mostly I'm trying to explain how the licensing regime in general works, why the idea that "a coast station licence is to allow use of additional channels not to restrict use of already available channels" is fundamentally incorrect, and hence why the reality of what they do doesn't match your assumptions about how the world works. And those aspects I do "know", not "think", because I have read the Wireless Telegraphy Act and the text of my own station licenses, where they are clearly set out.

Pete

 

[l'escargot]

I am certainly making some assumptions about the NCI specifically, because I don't know what's in their license, and I'm happy to be corrected on the details of that. But mostly I'm trying to explain how the licensing regime in general works, why the idea that "a coast station licence is to allow use of additional channels not to restrict use of already available channels" is fundamentally incorrect, and hence why the reality of what they do doesn't match your assumptions about how the world works. And those aspects I do "know", not "think", because I have read the Wireless Telegraphy Act and the text of my own station licenses, where they are clearly set out.

Pete

Yes, I was asking quite specifically about the NCI and not how licencing works in general - you were simply speculating as to what their situation might be based on your knowledge of the legislation. It would seem that you don't know what the actual situation is with the NCI though.

I don't think the general attitude to radio use in the UK is really a good indicator of how the "world works" but such a suggestion does show the inflated idea many have of it's (and their own) importance.

What I actually said was "I would've thought a coast station licence is to allow use of additional channels not to restrict use of already available channels". I still think that and that the "intention" of the licence is not to remove access to generally available frequencies but more to provide access to additional frequencies not widely available to others - the application may be wrong.

From what people who say they have links to the NCI have posted on here, the fact that they have access to and use other available channels, would suggest that there are others, in officialdom even, that are of the same view - probably the just showing how the "real" world works...

 

[chanelyacht]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions there - there are posts here from people with knowledge of NCI that say they have Ch16 and there is even mention on their website of "monitoring" 16 - I think you might be discussing what you think, not necessarily what you know - but thanks for sharing your thoughts even if you can't give a definitive answer...:encouragement:

The NCI "monitor" Ch16 as their Coast Station Licence allows them an RX only on that frequency. I know they do listen to a lot of others, via either radio or scanner, which is actually illegal but I suspect Ofcom take a "wider interest" view of that.

If they hear something the CG haven't, their MOU with HMCG (since 1995) has been very clear - that is a call to the CG by phone, 999 if urgent enough, who will then take the appropriate action - the same as anyone listening on a scanner at home.

NCI (or anyone else) do not coordinate SAR from the shore, so have no need to be using Ch16 from a fixed location.

The reason NCI are allowed to use coast stations but not 16 is also in the operator licensing - letting them do so on a "private" channel (i.e. 65, or marinas on theirs) is an exception which means they can use an RYA short range certificate.

Ch16 land operators (e.g. HMCG, VTS, etc) require a far more demanding Coast Station Operators Certificate, or the restricted version which allows them to use as long as a fully qualified person supervises.

That's not something you learn over a couple of days.

 

[l'escargot]

The NCI "monitor" Ch16 as their Coast Station Licence allows them an RX only on that frequency. I know they do listen to a lot of others, via either radio or scanner, which is actually illegal but I suspect Ofcom take a "wider interest" view of that.

If they hear something the CG haven't, their MOU with HMCG (since 1995) has been very clear - that is a call to the CG by phone, 999 if urgent enough, who will then take the appropriate action - the same as anyone listening on a scanner at home.

NCI (or anyone else) do not coordinate SAR from the shore, so have no need to be using Ch16 from a fixed location.

The reason NCI are allowed to use coast stations but not 16 is also in the operator licensing - letting them do so on a "private" channel (i.e. 65, or marinas on theirs) is an exception which means they can use an RYA short range certificate.

Ch16 land operators (e.g. HMCG, VTS, etc) require a far more demanding Coast Station Operators Certificate, or the restricted version which allows them to use as long as a fully qualified person supervises.

That's not something you learn over a couple of days.

Not allowing the NCI to use the same frequencies as every boat owner who bothers to buy a vhf would seem to limit their usefulness - is the reasoning perhaps based more on historical political/demarcation issues rather than a desire to use them to their best effect?

 

[chanelyacht]

Not allowing the NCI to use the same frequencies as every boat owner who bothers to buy a vhf would seem to limit their usefulness - is the reasoning perhaps based more on historical political/demarcation issues rather than a desire to use them to their best effect?

If the NCI buy a boat, then they can.

They are bound by the same rules that every other shore installed station is bound by - and rightly so. They have no need to be transmitting mayday relays, the CG are there for that. You also need to remember that by acknowledging a mayday, that station becomes the coordinating authority - and the NCI are very definately not one of those.

The NCI's mission from inception was spot - plot - report, not coordinate and broadcast.That original mission is a very good one, and does not duplicate anyone else's legal remit.

If, for example, the NCI need to direct a lifeboat onto a casualty during an incident, this can either be done on Ch0, or on Ch16 via telephone with a broadcast link established by the MRCC. That way, the coordinating authority maintains VHF integrity and also removes legal liability from the NCI in the event of errors.

It's worth remembering that even the CG teams do not use Ch16 - if they feel the need to do so, authority is sought from the MRCC.