photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Which tribunal would that be then?
Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge
- Thread starter RichardS
- Start date
Which tribunal would that be then?
Bru
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid that's (almost) completely wrong
Any agreement, written or verbal, between two parties forms a contract in law
Volunteer agreements are not excepted
The "enforceability" of that contract in the courts is a different matter and (largely) hinges on whether the wronged party can prove a breach of contract AND demonstrate a quantifiable financial loss due to the breach of contract
Since a financial loss due to a breach of a volunteer agreement is unlikely in the extreme, the practical result is that such agreements are rarely if ever going to end up before the courts
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
As I understand it, a contract requires offer, acceptance, consideration and intent. What's the consideration for unpaid volunteers?
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Precisely. No pay, no liability.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Their time, from the point of view of the organisation. Volunteer time has a quantifiable financial value and is therefore a consideration
It's rather less clear the other way about but there's often one or more perqesites that have a financial value (a whole subject of scrutiny for charity trustees by itself is that!)
A contract requires a consideration to be legally enforceable, not to exist by the way
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
I think you need to review the basics of English contract law...
http://www.a4id.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/A4ID-english-contract-law-at-a-glance.pdf
Note in particular sections C and D (par 20 and 22 in particular..)
Volunteer agreements are not intended to be legally binding.
But I note we are not actually talking about a normal contract for services or goods such as I would enter into with you to work on my boat for instance.. we are actually talking about a contract of employment, which has different legal minimum standards for people employed as employees within the U.K.... and these include within the principle statement pay, working hours, holiday entitlement, amongst others.... (Bearing in mind pay is also subject to legislation...)
If the contract of employment Attempts to negate the issue of pay such as to avoid taxes or NI, It is considered an illegal contract of employment btw.....
So it’s pretty clear I think that as there is no consideration or intent to create a contract within the MCA for its volunteers, no employment contract exists.... and if the volunteers are deemed employees, then undoubtedly they are under an illegal contract of employment, as it’s clear they are not paying tax on any renumeration or BIK.
And if the employment contract is illegal, they have no recourse to the ET.
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Bru
Well-Known Member
Yep, fully familiar with all of that. And a lot more besides.
The question of whether a volunteer agreement is or isn't intended to be legally binding is crucial and not as simplistic as that particular interpretation presents
You could even have wording such as "This agreement does not form a legally binding contract" and find that the courts disagree
However, we are rather getting away from the point and arguing about hypothetical and esoteric legal split hairs
The practical reality is that provided a volunteer agreement doesn't include the obligations expected of an employee it is not subject to employment law
RichardS
N/A
I thought that you'd finally given up with this silliness. What, exactly, is what your problem?
It's obviously the Tribunal that one would take a case to against one's employer if one were a worker or employee .... as is explicit from the context.
Richard
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Yep, fully familiar with all of that. And a lot more besides.
The question of whether a volunteer agreement is or isn't intended to be legally binding is crucial and not as simplistic as that particular interpretation presents
You could even have wording such as "This agreement does not form a legally binding contract" and find that the courts disagree
However, we are rather getting away from the point and arguing about hypothetical and esoteric legal split hairs
The practical reality is that provided a volunteer agreement doesn't include the obligations expected of an employee it is not subject to employment law
Well I think it goes beyond that, if the agreement doesn’t need the statutory minimum for employment... no contract exists... and this includes of course pay at the statutory minimum wage....
I also think that you have this a bit arse about.... in reality it’s not about obligations expected of an employee, it’s about the the nature of the relationship from both sides, and this test of employment status is well understood... one of the key tests of course being.... how are you paid.
If your not paid, your not an employee.
It’s very dangerous ground for a volunteer to pursue... as it could potentially leave that volunteer with a not inconsiderable liability to hmrc.....
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photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
I thought that you'd finally given up with this silliness. What, exactly, is what your problem?
It's obviously the Tribunal that one would take a case to against one's employer if one were a worker or employee .... as is explicit from the context.
Richard
So which tribunal is that then if one doesn’t have a legal contract of employment?
RichardS
N/A
I assume that you're being deliberately dim? If one is a worker or an employee then, by definition, one has an employment contract, verbal or otherwise, sufficient to enable one to claim employment rights which are legally enforceable at an Employment Tribunal.
This is kindergarten stuff. :ambivalence:
Richard
awol
Well-Known Member
Again from decades ago, consideration is not a requirement for a contract in some parts of the UK. Not a factor in this case but a point worth remembering.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Wrong again I'm afraid
I have a nasty feeling that we've gone round the circle and ended up back where we began!
There is case law and legal opinion aplenty to the effect that if you have the obligations of an employee, regardless of whether you are paid or not, you have the rights of an employee and in fact and in law your ARE an employee
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't the volunteers' time - like my time as an employee - be the service for which the consideration is exchanged?
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
I would have thought that the difference between being on a "shout" and then being "stood down" was so clearly different to "freedom to determine when they undertake which tasks are part if their employment" that it would not need me to explain it.
As for "pissing off to the pub for a couple of bevvies", have you ever worked in an organisation?
Richard
You stand down from a state of readiness or duty. If a serviceman is told to stand down it means stop carrying out that activity or (more correctly) return to a lower state of readiness. Same for fire crews, etc. - if you tell them to stand down it means they are not required or wanted for that particular duty, not that they are off work. It doesn't mean you can do what you want and, in fact it, means the opposite in the cases above - it's not a suggestion, it's an order. You don't just carry on an do it. I'm guessing you've never worked in an organisation that actually has proper discipline given your comments.
RichardS
N/A
And I'm guessing that you've never worked in an organisation that actually requires you to read things properly, given your comments.
Richard
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
Sacking people who help someone is utter madness who whoever made the decision should be sacked.
ProMariner
Well-Known Member
Always very sad to read stories like these, I remember in the Clyde a few years ago an off duty fire fighter got sacked for rescuing a person from the water. Lions lead by donkeys indeed, are we now a country lead only by smooth talking arse covering imbeciles, across all fields? Independent fire stations, lifeboats being withdrawn, it seems trust is missing across the levels? What went wrong? Helpful Coartguards, brave fire fighters, skilful lifeboatmen, we salute you, and feel your pain.
I like the upside down organisational chart, you have the operators at the top, they are the ones that fix the cars, drive the trains, clean and fix the infrastructure. Then you have a smaller number of support staff, there to assist them make their work smooth and productive, and below them a smaller number to facilitate. The 'Managers' job is to have faith in the training, skills and judgement of the operator, and assist them with any impediment that pops up.
I like the upside down organisational chart, you have the operators at the top, they are the ones that fix the cars, drive the trains, clean and fix the infrastructure. Then you have a smaller number of support staff, there to assist them make their work smooth and productive, and below them a smaller number to facilitate. The 'Managers' job is to have faith in the training, skills and judgement of the operator, and assist them with any impediment that pops up.
Wansworth
Well-Known Member
At the rate the so called management are going there will be one coast guard and ten managers!
penberth3
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, you've remembered the tabloid newspaper version.
They did not stand and watch a person drown. The person had already drowned and was out of sight under the water in an urban pond full of junk. They took the right decision not to risk their lives to recover a body, location unknown, from a frozen lake.