Vertue 2 displacement vs other, similar boats in size

[Outlander]

Hello,

I'm looking to buy a small yacht, have been going through the specs of multiple boats and spotted something I can't explain.
26ft Vertue 2 has a displacement of 4182kg but similar in shape 27ft Albin Vega has a displacement of 2300kg, another one which is 26ft Hallberg Rassy has a displacement of 2500kg.

Displacement close to Vertue 2 is a 6ft longer Contessa 32 - 4309kg.

Why is Vertue II so heavy? Or perhaps - is the data correct? I am using sailboatdata but bossoms boatyard also has the same number.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

Yes the heavy displacement is correct. It is all about the prismatic coefficient - that is the %age of the volume of water bounded by the waterline length beam and depth of water that is filled by the hull. In practical terms the deep hull, slack bilges and full length wide keel of the Vertue displace more water than the firmer bilge, narrower and shorter keel of the Vega for example. The Contessa 32 is only 2.5' Longer on the waterline and not much wider on the waterline beam plus it has a much shorter keel that is a fin on a more canoe like body. The respective Disp/L ratios are Vertue 418 CO32 306 SA/Disp are 16.4 and 15.5

In other words the Vertue is a deep bodied heavy old boat that needs a lot of sail to get it going. Some people value all that and tolerate the downsides of poor cramped accommodation compared with a modern wider shallower lighter lighter displacement boat of similar length.

 

[Outlander]

Thank you for your input.

Does that mean the Vertue will be more stable in heavy seas than the Vega? Am I reading it right? Or - a more generic question - why would anyone value the Vertue over a modern boat?
Also, I know it's a vague question but how much sail is 'a lot' to get it going?

 

[geem]

There have been some amazing voyages undertaken in a Vertue and some serious storm survivals. A small boat built to deal with what ever the weather can throw at it won't be the first choice for the person who keeps a boat in a marina to entertain his guests with g&ts.

 

[dansaskip]

I always wanted a Vertue . Compare also the Vancouver 27 & Vancouver 28 displacements of 4064 kg so quite similar to the Vertue. Like the Vertue these also have excellent reputations for sea keeping and have been used for some amazing voyages including around the world trips. Tranona is partly right although you cannot expect spacious accommodation in any small boat and I would ague that whether it is poor or cramped is a very subjective judgment and to some extent depends on your own size and height. Yes for a family say it may not be a suitable boat but for a couple or single hander I would say ideal. I certainly found it so on my ocean crossings. One advantage of what some call cramped is that when conditions get rough it is easier to wedge yourself in and you don't run such a risk of being thrown across the cabin.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My Twister is a bit overweight at 5000kg. The design is 4400kg. Both the Twister and the Vertue have 21'6" LWL Both heavy and both feel about the same when the weather gets up. It's a very different experience from a lighter displacement hull. I think the term comfort ratio is used by some but I never really looked into it as I've sailed a Vertue off shore in bad weather so I know exactly what it feels like compared to the modern yachts I've sailed in the same conditions.
Don't let the displacement put you off, the Vertue just plods on once she's going although she can be stopped by waves if they come at just the right angle.
The "slutter" rig covers most sailing conditions but a Kite of some type is very useful in light airs.
You feel how deep the hull is when you stand up in the cabin and look out. You sleep below the waterline which is very comfortable.

So long as you are not in a rush to get there the Vertue is a most pleasant design.
Lagos to Horta 12 days.

If I had the time for a wooden Yacht the Vertue would be my choice (search Tom Thumb for the best currently available) . In GRP I chose the Twister.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you for your input.

Does that mean the Vertue will be more stable in heavy seas than the Vega? Am I reading it right? Or - a more generic question - why would anyone value the Vertue over a modern boat?
Also, I know it's a vague question but how much sail is 'a lot' to get it going?

The other responses have explained where the qualities are valued, as well as identifying similar boats with similar qualities that are perhaps easier to live with compared with an original wooden Vertue. The figures you have though are for the GRP Vertue II which is roomier with a tad more beam and higher topsides and is more directly comparable with the Vancouver and Twister. Vegas have done similar things to Vertues in terms of unassisted ocean voyaging and may well be livelier, but in reality small boats are inherently uncomfortable in rough conditions. However unless you specifically go looking for such conditions in your passage planning the amount of time such conditions are experienced is very small as a proportion of the total passage.

Why do people buy such boats - simple because they like them. Pointless really trying to compare with modern boats as they are different beasts and choice of boats is rarely completely rational. I have had 2 state of the art new boats, both bought mainly with the head rather than heart - that is they were perfect for the intended use. Still loved them for what they were and well aware of their potential shortcomings - but for my type of use those shortcomings were irrelevant. Before owning those I had an old style heavy displacement boat which I also loved, and now own a larger version of the same design - bought with the head, because I like it and can afford to indulge myself.

On the question of sail area. The key measure is SA/Displ which is essentially the power to weight ratio. The Vertue at 16 is in the middle of the range for cruising boats, Vancouver similar, Twister lower at 12, although you have treat the figures with caution because they do not all use the same methodology. However the Twister has less sail area (between 360-390 depending on model) than the Vertue at 460. Also the figures are usually based on working sail areas rather than what one might actually use. The reality is that with the basic rig the Vertue will be slow in light airs, but once the wind gets up to say 10knots will start to move well and more importantly for some will carry full sail for far longer, often to well over 20 knots of wind. This is very different from more modern boats which will have typically a higher SA/Displ and be better in light airs but need sail area reduction earlier. Many would argue that is better for typical coastal sailors which perhaps in part explains their popularity. On the other hand one can improve light weather performance on heavier boats by adding extra sail area. On my old boat I have a working jib that covers wind ranges from 8-20 knots and a large foresail for light airs, particularly off wind.

 

[geem]

The other responses have explained where the qualities are valued, as well as identifying similar boats with similar qualities that are perhaps easier to live with compared with an original wooden Vertue. The figures you have though are for the GRP Vertue II which is roomier with a tad more beam and higher topsides and is more directly comparable with the Vancouver and Twister. Vegas have done similar things to Vertues in terms of unassisted ocean voyaging and may well be livelier, but in reality small boats are inherently uncomfortable in rough conditions. However unless you specifically go looking for such conditions in your passage planning the amount of time such conditions are experienced is very small as a proportion of the total passage.

Why do people buy such boats - simple because they like them. Pointless really trying to compare with modern boats as they are different beasts and choice of boats is rarely completely rational. I have had 2 state of the art new boats, both bought mainly with the head rather than heart - that is they were perfect for the intended use. Still loved them for what they were and well aware of their potential shortcomings - but for my type of use those shortcomings were irrelevant. Before owning those I had an old style heavy displacement boat which I also loved, and now own a larger version of the same design - bought with the head, because I like it and can afford to indulge myself.

On the question of sail area. The key measure is SA/Displ which is essentially the power to weight ratio. The Vertue at 16 is in the middle of the range for cruising boats, Vancouver similar, Twister lower at 12, although you have treat the figures with caution because they do not all use the same methodology. However the Twister has less sail area (between 360-390 depending on model) than the Vertue at 460. Also the figures are usually based on working sail areas rather than what one might actually use. The reality is that with the basic rig the Vertue will be slow in light airs, but once the wind gets up to say 10knots will start to move well and more importantly for some will carry full sail for far longer, often to well over 20 knots of wind. This is very different from more modern boats which will have typically a higher SA/Displ and be better in light airs but need sail area reduction earlier. Many would argue that is better for typical coastal sailors which perhaps in part explains their popularity. On the other hand one can improve light weather performance on heavier boats by adding extra sail area. On my old boat I have a working jib that covers wind ranges from 8-20 knots and a large foresail for light airs, particularly off wind.

We rarely agree on much but you are spot on with this one

 

[Tranona]

I should perhaps have added that the other important attraction if looking to buy this size and type of boat now is that they are cheap. If your plans include a lot of serious offshore sailing then they and the slightly bigger boats such as the Halmatic 30 are excellent value for money. On the other hand if your sailing is mostly coastal then there is a wide choice of boats for similar money from the next generation of designs which are arguably more suitable with potentially better performance and better accommodation.

 

[Outlander]

Thank you all for contributing to my thread, I wasn't expecting so many useful insights.
Twister looks good to me and it shares a few similarities to Vertue, at least to an amateur like me. Halmatic 30 is great and well priced, there aren't that many older boats with wide beam like this one. Will see if I can view them.

The boat I'm after must be good enough to initially circumnavigate UK and Ireland, then cross Atlantic and back. I will be mostly sailing solo but on some passages I may have a friend joining me. Shorter boat is just easier to manage even if cramped inside and I don't mind minimalism. The only real issue is lack of shower on smaller boats but I have a few ideas how to get around that.

One generic question on haggling, don't want to put silly offers but with older boats that have been on the market for months, how much below asking offer you can go?

 

[geem]

Thank you all for contributing to my thread, I wasn't expecting so many useful insights.
Twister looks good to me and it shares a few similarities to Vertue, at least to an amateur like me. Halmatic 30 is great and well priced, there aren't that many older boats with wide beam like this one. Will see if I can view them.

The boat I'm after must be good enough to initially circumnavigate UK and Ireland, then cross Atlantic and back. I will be mostly sailing solo but on some passages I may have a friend joining me. Shorter boat is just easier to manage even if cramped inside and I don't mind minimalism. The only real issue is lack of shower on smaller boats but I have a few ideas how to get around that.

One generic question on haggling, don't want to put silly offers but with older boats that have been on the market for months, how much below asking offer you can go?

I would go for the largest boat you can manage as all boats have a habit of filling up to just above their storage capacity!
I have two friends who both sailed their Fulmars long distance, including any Atlantic circuit. They are a good balance of sea keeping ability, performance and accommodation for a singlehander or a couple. You can fit a shower easily.
I have one friend who circumnavigating on a Vancouver 28. He then moved up to a 34 as 28ft is pretty cramped. Tough little boat and very capable

 

[donm]

Thank you all for contributing to my thread, I wasn't expecting so many useful insights.
Twister looks good to me and it shares a few similarities to Vertue, at least to an amateur like me. Halmatic 30 is great and well priced, there aren't that many older boats with wide beam like this one. Will see if I can view them.

The boat I'm after must be good enough to initially circumnavigate UK and Ireland, then cross Atlantic and back. I will be mostly sailing solo but on some passages I may have a friend joining me. Shorter boat is just easier to manage even if cramped inside and I don't mind minimalism. The only real issue is lack of shower on smaller boats but I have a few ideas how to get around that.

One generic question on haggling, don't want to put silly offers but with older boats that have been on the market for months, how much below asking offer you can go?

I have a shower in my Halmatic - there’s plenty of space for one

 

[Outlander]

I would go for the largest boat you can manage as all boats have a habit of filling up to just above their storage capacity!
I have two friends who both sailed their Fulmars long distance, including any Atlantic circuit. They are a good balance of sea keeping ability, performance and accommodation for a singlehander or a couple. You can fit a shower easily.
I have one friend who circumnavigating on a Vancouver 28. He then moved up to a 34 as 28ft is pretty cramped. Tough little boat and very capable

I like Vancouver 28 even though it doesn't have a forward cabin. 32/34 are even better but they're all £30k+ which is slightly over my budget.

I have a shower in my Halmatic - there’s plenty of space for one

Did you put it yourself or was it already there when you bought her? Any chance to see some photos as I'm very curious. I really like the boat, the only issue I see is they're getting a bit old, the ones I've found so far are around 45-50years old. Not sure how much they suffer from osmosis or fiberglass fatigue...

 

[donm]

I like Vancouver 28 even though it doesn't have a forward cabin. 32/34 are even better but they're all £30k+ which is slightly over my budget.


Did you put it yourself or was it already there when you bought her? Any chance to see some photos as I'm very curious. I really like the boat, the only issue I see is they're getting a bit old, the ones I've found so far are around 45-50years old. Not sure how much they suffer from osmosis or fiberglass fatigue...

Yep - along with pressurised water and a calorifier to heat the water. All easy enough. My boat was built in 1979 and I have owned it for 20 years and we're both still in very good nick.
There has been some very good advice on this thread so it's all about what kind of sailing you will do. The Halmatic is very kind at sea but lacks space in port. My son has just bought a Konsort which is also a little long in the tooth, and whilst I would always prefer my boat at sea, his takes some beating in port. And the Bennies/Bavarias/Jenneaus are all a step up in accomodation and sail very well although needing a bit more care in a breeze than the Halmatic.
I started sailing 60+ years ago and don't regret the boat that I have, but if I were starting afresh ..................????????????????

 

[Tranona]

Thank you all for contributing to my thread, I wasn't expecting so many useful insights.
Twister looks good to me and it shares a few similarities to Vertue, at least to an amateur like me. Halmatic 30 is great and well priced, there aren't that many older boats with wide beam like this one. Will see if I can view them.

The boat I'm after must be good enough to initially circumnavigate UK and Ireland, then cross Atlantic and back. I will be mostly sailing solo but on some passages I may have a friend joining me. Shorter boat is just easier to manage even if cramped inside and I don't mind minimalism. The only real issue is lack of shower on smaller boats but I have a few ideas how to get around that.

One generic question on haggling, don't want to put silly offers but with older boats that have been on the market for months, how much below asking offer you can go?

Just about any decent cruising boat is suitable for circumnavigating the UK - after all most are designed for exactly that - it is just a series of coastal hops. Offshore cruising transatlantic is rather different and as geem suggests size becomes more important if only for the ability to carry more "stuff". It is easy to get too hung up about the choice of boat when most who have done it will tell you it is more about how well prepared the boat is and how "good" you are.

When you are in the limited budget zone - that is under £30k ready to go you are limited to old boats and when buying condition and level of gear is far more important than the specific design. If you are planning this type of cruising the boat is a means to an end, not the end itself. Many plans never come to fruition because of the desire to have the most perfect and best looking boat. One of the most successful boats for this type of project before we all (at least new boat buyers) became rich was the boat I have - the Golden Hind 31. Pretty ugly looking to most eyes, and a bit slow, but spacious and as tough as old boots. A key measure for ocean passage making is daily runs and a GH will average 100-120 miles with minimal effort. Of course not alone in being able to do that, but you could buy and prepare a decent one for similar money to the smaller boats you mentioned at the beginning.

As a general rule when buying avoid a project and look for the best condition and gear as costs of new gear to replace and upgrade is out of proportion to the purchase price of the boat. Concentrate on the important things - engine, rig and sails, electrics, anchor handling, self steering etc as these are the items that eat money to repair or replace.

 

[ridgy]

I think most would agree that 32 feet is the sweet spot for the balance of single handed operation, space, speed, and running costs. With so many esteemed ocean proven boats in that size available for sub 15k e.g. Rivals, Contessa 32, even Fulmars, for your proposed usage I would would cut to the chase and look at those.
People did it on vertues because that's all they had.

 

[geem]

I think most would agree that 32 feet is the sweet spot for the balance of single handed operation, space, speed, and running costs. With so many esteemed ocean proven boats in that size available for sub 15k e.g. Rivals, Contessa 32, even Fulmars, for your proposed usage I would would cut to the chase and look at those.
People did it on vertues because that's all they had.

Not necessarily. Some people choose a particular boat for all sort of reasons. You are right though. If I was ever down sizing, a Fulmar would be top of my list

 

[doug748]

I like Vancouver 28 even though it doesn't have a forward cabin. 32/34 are even better but they're all £30k+ which is slightly over my budget.


Did you put it yourself or was it already there when you bought her? Any chance to see some photos as I'm very curious. I really like the boat, the only issue I see is they're getting a bit old, the ones I've found so far are around 45-50years old. Not sure how much they suffer from osmosis or fiberglass fatigue...

Good luck with your search and the project.

I'm sure all of the boats mentioned would be capable of doing the job but the key thing is the person/s at he helm. If you have not done much sailing so far it's important to have some experience, after all, given the best boat in the world, it's no good if you are badly seasick, bored, feel confined or simple don't like the life.
A shower within a boat is a nice thing in good weather, inshore but maybe the least of your worries at sea, singlehanded. On the proposed long trips you won't have the water to run it and a bucket in the cockpit does the same job with nothing to maintain or break - whilst keeping unwanted water out of the hull.

.

 

[Outlander]

What do you think about this Rival 32 guys? Not that far from the place I live.

 

[Outlander]

Good luck with your search and the project.

I'm sure all of the boats mentioned would be capable of doing the job but the key thing is the person/s at he helm. If you have not done much sailing so far it's important to have some experience, after all, given the best boat in the world, it's no good if you are badly seasick, bored, feel confined or simple don't like the life.
A shower within a boat is a nice thing in good weather, inshore but maybe the least of your worries at sea, singlehanded. On the proposed long trips you won't have the water to run it and a bucket in the cockpit does the same job with nothing to maintain or break - whilst keeping unwanted water out of the hull.

.

Agree with everything you're saying. As with the showering, a camping shower attached to the boom was something I contemplated