Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Where are you based? That is a remarkably good price for a Co32.
Vertue 2 displacement vs other, similar boats in size
- Thread starter Outlander
- Start date
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
I’m intrigued by the exploding tender
doug748
Well-Known Member
That Contessa has been around a while, in my experience at that price point, it will have significant problems. it could be a fun boat for inshore sailing but a killer to bring up to offshore standards. One clue is that it was brought ashore to have an access hatch cut into the cockpit floor. I think this is a quite bonkers idea, there are other ways to attend to the rear seacocks and engine access on the Contessa is excellent.
Best left well alone.
Ironically Contessa's have always had full moulded cabin liners, I have never heard anyone complain of condensation probably due to the air gap.
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Best left well alone.
Ironically Contessa's have always had full moulded cabin liners, I have never heard anyone complain of condensation probably due to the air gap.
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Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion, though not correct in all points.
The important factors governing boat performance are:
Displacement/length ratio which is indicative of the potential upper speed limit of a design. Lighter Designs have a higher speed potential than heavier ones because the resistance curve for the lighter boat is shallower. This does not mean that the lighter boat is always faster.
Which brings us to the sail area/displacement ratio, which as Tranoma correctly pointed out, is a power to weight ratio. As sail area is calculated in relationship to displacement, it means that two boats, one light and one heavy and with the same SA/D ratio, will both reach their nominal hull speed at the same time, regardless of their weight difference. However, as the resistance curve for the heavier boat rises more steeply after a relative speed of about 0.9 (about 5 kn on a 28' DWL and up to which point the curves for both the heavy and light boat curves are quite similar) the heavy boat will have a relative abundance of power at the lower end of the resistance curve and will be faster than the lighter boat (up to a relative speed of 0.9), especially in light conditions.
Only beyond the mark of traditional hull speed does the potential of a lighter design open up. Given a similar SA/D ratio, the performance differences in every day cruising will be pretty much nil.
Our tub, with a L/D of 360 and a SA/D of nearly 18 (cruiser/racer range, according to Brewer et all) quite regularly beats supposedly much mor slippery types in light going. Just two weeks ago we beat a Sun Odyssey 349 over 40 miles, from Brehat to St. Malo, with alternating boats leading, until conditions fell light and we were able to reach St. Malo some three miles ahead of the competition.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that SA/D is the most important, single, performance indicating factor of all.
D/L is still relevant as an indication for comfort, particularly in respect to a boat's ability to resist reacting to every little wave (waterplane loading).
Prismatic coefficient. I doubt very much that CP has anything to do with the performance differences between a Vertue and more contemporary types.
Without going into too much detail: CP describes the relative fullness of a boats ends in relationship to its midship section. Each CP number, as Admiral Taylor discovered some 150 years ago, corresponds to a particular relative speed and where it offers some benefit of reduced resistance.
Generally speaking a low CP of 0.49 excels at low speeds, a higher CP of say 0.60 at higher speeds around a relative speed of 1.25 (hull speed is 1.34). At higher speeds the low CP design will suck up a formidable quarter wave, causing a massive increase in resistance. Conversely, the high CP boat will have a fuller bow causing increased resistance in waves. Contemporary designers compromise with a CP of between 0.56 to 0.58.
A practical application of this and before anyone knew anything about such things, is the Shetland yawl. Over time two types developed; one with fine ends and another with much fuller bows and stern sections. These boats are raced competitively and with a passion that maces the AC look like a second or third rate event. In light conditions the fine-ended (low CP) model rules supreme, in strong winds the more blunt-ended one (high CP) proved superior.
Other than for some (misplaced) romantic appeal, a solid wood stove has outlived its usefulness aboard a yacht, especially a small one where fuel storage is a concern.
I have lived with all types: solid, diesel (drip feed or evaporator type) and forced air diesel. The first two will eventually cover your decks in black soot, back-drafting into the cabin in high winds is a nightmare. Give me the ease and convenience of a forced air type any day. I can switch it on remotely from my bunk in the focs'l, it does not smoke and delivers warmth to every part of the boat including under our V-berth. In the day of solar panels the modest power consumption is no longer of concern.
Best, A.
The important factors governing boat performance are:
Displacement/length ratio which is indicative of the potential upper speed limit of a design. Lighter Designs have a higher speed potential than heavier ones because the resistance curve for the lighter boat is shallower. This does not mean that the lighter boat is always faster.
Which brings us to the sail area/displacement ratio, which as Tranoma correctly pointed out, is a power to weight ratio. As sail area is calculated in relationship to displacement, it means that two boats, one light and one heavy and with the same SA/D ratio, will both reach their nominal hull speed at the same time, regardless of their weight difference. However, as the resistance curve for the heavier boat rises more steeply after a relative speed of about 0.9 (about 5 kn on a 28' DWL and up to which point the curves for both the heavy and light boat curves are quite similar) the heavy boat will have a relative abundance of power at the lower end of the resistance curve and will be faster than the lighter boat (up to a relative speed of 0.9), especially in light conditions.
Only beyond the mark of traditional hull speed does the potential of a lighter design open up. Given a similar SA/D ratio, the performance differences in every day cruising will be pretty much nil.
Our tub, with a L/D of 360 and a SA/D of nearly 18 (cruiser/racer range, according to Brewer et all) quite regularly beats supposedly much mor slippery types in light going. Just two weeks ago we beat a Sun Odyssey 349 over 40 miles, from Brehat to St. Malo, with alternating boats leading, until conditions fell light and we were able to reach St. Malo some three miles ahead of the competition.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that SA/D is the most important, single, performance indicating factor of all.
D/L is still relevant as an indication for comfort, particularly in respect to a boat's ability to resist reacting to every little wave (waterplane loading).
Prismatic coefficient. I doubt very much that CP has anything to do with the performance differences between a Vertue and more contemporary types.
Without going into too much detail: CP describes the relative fullness of a boats ends in relationship to its midship section. Each CP number, as Admiral Taylor discovered some 150 years ago, corresponds to a particular relative speed and where it offers some benefit of reduced resistance.
Generally speaking a low CP of 0.49 excels at low speeds, a higher CP of say 0.60 at higher speeds around a relative speed of 1.25 (hull speed is 1.34). At higher speeds the low CP design will suck up a formidable quarter wave, causing a massive increase in resistance. Conversely, the high CP boat will have a fuller bow causing increased resistance in waves. Contemporary designers compromise with a CP of between 0.56 to 0.58.
A practical application of this and before anyone knew anything about such things, is the Shetland yawl. Over time two types developed; one with fine ends and another with much fuller bows and stern sections. These boats are raced competitively and with a passion that maces the AC look like a second or third rate event. In light conditions the fine-ended (low CP) model rules supreme, in strong winds the more blunt-ended one (high CP) proved superior.
Other than for some (misplaced) romantic appeal, a solid wood stove has outlived its usefulness aboard a yacht, especially a small one where fuel storage is a concern.
I have lived with all types: solid, diesel (drip feed or evaporator type) and forced air diesel. The first two will eventually cover your decks in black soot, back-drafting into the cabin in high winds is a nightmare. Give me the ease and convenience of a forced air type any day. I can switch it on remotely from my bunk in the focs'l, it does not smoke and delivers warmth to every part of the boat including under our V-berth. In the day of solar panels the modest power consumption is no longer of concern.
Best, A.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
When you have less than £10k to spend buying locally makes sense. Travel from Scotland to Rye with an overnight stay could easily cost £500, then getting a boat prepared and sailed back to Scotland by sea time consuming and costly. Put it on a truck and it will cost more than half the purchase price.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Scotland to Rye ain't a huge deal if seriously interested in a boat. (Used to regularly drive to Weymouth and back at weekends with a dinghy trailer.) Certainly doable for £150 with care.
And sailing back is perhaps a week - massively less time than might spend doing even a tiny bit of refit on an inferior boat that happens to be local.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Rye is a long, long way from Weymouth and if viewing a boat you can't do it in a day Glasgow/Rye is just shy of 1000 miles round trip - £200 in fuel alone @30mpg. 2 full days travelling and in winter no time to look at boats, so 2 overnight stays and eating out another £200
In this case the inferior boat is the boat 500 miles away. The boat in Rye is a wreck - seller says used for day sails only which is perhaps why asking price is half that of even the lower end of CO32. Even if it is worth buying, getting down to Rye, preparing it will eat money before you even think about sailing it the 600 miles back.
The key figure when buying is what it costs to get in the place you want it in the condition you want. On that basis the Cape Dory wins hands down apart from being to my mind a far better boat for the OPs purpose than a clapped out CO 32.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
When we were boat buying in the UK we had to be prepared to travel a long way to get any kind of sensible deal.
A diesel Golf doing 65mpg on the motorway, Travelodge booked in advance at £26/night, two of us taking watches... that's how you view five boats in a weekend between Skye and Brighton.
Yes there was a cost involved, but far less than buying the wrong boat.
A diesel Golf doing 65mpg on the motorway, Travelodge booked in advance at £26/night, two of us taking watches... that's how you view five boats in a weekend between Skye and Brighton.
Yes there was a cost involved, but far less than buying the wrong boat.
geem
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more. In Peugeot does 53mpg at 80mph and Travel Lodges get you hundreds of miles for little money
Minerva
Well-Known Member
I often agree with you Traona, but it’s only Scotland. You make it sound like it’s a different continent.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Does not matter what it is called it is still 500 miles, 2 full days' driving. I can be in France in around half that from Poole with my car! Aware of the challenges of getting to Scotland from the south coast as my granddaughter has just started uni in Edinburgh. Train takes all day starting at 6.30 and costs typically £200, bus is cheap but even longer. Both have at least one change. Fortunately Ryanair flies from Bournemouth 3 times a week £135 return with long legroom seat. £76 return for airport taxi my end and £52 the other.
When I was looking for my last boat I fancied one located at Inverkip - flight to Glasgow from Southampton hire car one night stay well over £400. Alternative driving around £100 less
dunedin
Well-Known Member
A train from London to Edinburgh could be yours with a senior railcard for under £100.
I wasn’t commenting on any specific boats or their merits, just the poster’s self imposed constraint of only looking locally.
Buying a better boat could save £’thousands and months of restoration work. I would suggest a couple of days and a couple of hundred quid in that case would be a very worthwhile return on investment. Particularly if can visit multiple boats at the same time.
I have travelled several hundred miles to buy all my cars - and travelled south multiple times to view boats before buying 1,000 miles away in France (pre-B mess).
Living in Scotland has many many benefits - and if prepared to travel occasionally to source specialist things or attend specialist events, that is all part of living. Many need to travel a day each way (weather permitting) just to get to a hospital.
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Sea Change
Well-Known Member
I'm a 250 mile round trip to my dentist. I've been on the waiting list for somewhere more local for several years.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Maybe you missed the context - when the budget is less than £10k travel costs and particularly moving the boat to where you want it are a significant proportion of the budget, never mind the logistics involved.