VAT Status post Brexit

[nortada]

In additional to the T2L, it may be necessary to have your boat in the EU on the days of exit. This will, according to information the RYA received - purportedly from the EU Commission enable you to be sure that you will remain as goods in circulation. As my boat is in Greece I should be OK - but perhaps if the exit is delayed, I will need to make sure I am not in Turkey at the time of Brexit.

Who Knows!

True, who knows but given the RYA’s track record on this issue, I suspect not true.

More likely the EU have bigger fish to fry so this latest take was just another throw away line.

This documentation is for export/import of goods - not for yachts in the EU or in transit.

If asked, HMRC will confirm as much but still provide a completed C88/T2L to help yotties in distress in Portugal and Croatia.

 

[nortada]

My observations in red

I had found the form online and downloaded it a little while before reading that it couldn't be found. Nortada beat me to it by publishing the link. I had made a start on completing the form using information already published but the additional information did prove to be useful.

I didn't know about the RYA T2L pack and sent off for it just in case it provided additional information. It arrived today and did add a little bit extra. Some of the text must be in red, (Not true)there were some useful codes and an instruction that HMRC would not accept a downloaded form, only an original. (not true)

I already had the code for my boat and it agreed with the RYA one for >12m yacht.(Commodity Code 8903940)

No idea why a downloaded form wouldn't be acceptable to HMRC when it came from UK Gov website. Perhaps some people were only sending in one side of Page 4 and HMRC need to write something on the other side.(nothing added on the back side)

I scanned an original form and converted it to a PDF covering both sides, though only the first page needs to be completed. I added some instructions, tooltips and a dropdown list to select the code. Fields requiring data can be highlighted in Acrobat but other software might not allow this option. I put descriptive text in most fields in case they weren't highlighted. Just fill in text fields, pick from dropdown list (field 33), enter wt. in 35 and sign. It is in colour and looks like the original but I don't know if HMRC will accept it. It might still be useful for checking if completing an original form by hand. (Print off and complete the whole form in manuscript - much easier)

http://www.mistroma.com/Manuals/C88_Page4Form.pdf

I don't know if HMRC would object to me publishing this on my website. (Can’t see why, I did 2 years ago)I'll probably delete in a little while but can email copies if it is useful. I haven't tested it very much (relying on you lot as testers ), feedback welcome if I've messed something up. I was in a rush this afternoon so not exactly a work of art.

SSR NUMBER IN BOX 44. Don’t worry if you have omitted it - you can add it, in manuscript, when your form is returned.

Best of luck with your submission - I am sure it will be OK.

I have responded to your PM

 

[Mistroma]

Very many thanks for taking the time to help, I didn't realise that you had filled the form in a few years ago and would need to dig out old stuff. Sorry about that.

I know it is simpler to just write the form but made the PDF to help others. I had seen various descriptions and they didn't all make sense. If the PDF is correct then it should simplify things, I can make a black and white version easily. Only a quick cut and paste.

You are quite correct that it is pretty much a bit of nonsense and only needed because someone decided to ask for it in a couple of countries.

I'm pretty risk averse and also likely to return via Portugal at some point. CA and RYA advice finally pushed me into doing something. It's only a bit of time and a stamp and might be very useful at some future date. A friend works for HMRC and said it was complete misuse of the form when I mentioned it a few months ago. However, deep in Government documentation it says:
"Where proof of Union status is required retrospectively, a declaration can be made on copy 4 of the SAD (C88). This is referred to as a ‘T2L’ declaration."

Not surprised that Forms are in short supply. Good to know that RYA advice is out of date (their notes are Sept. 2016). I doubt there's any harm in following their instructions on a downloaded form. I even discovered a couple of email addresses for electronic submission. That's probably going too far and Royal Mail will be fine.

I couldn't actually find Commodity Code 8903940 when I checked, perhaps it has changed or Gov website isn't complete.

 

[Mistroma]

I thought I'd provide more information about the PDF mentioned in post #17. It may help to understand where the information came from (Nortada's Lagos link, RYA information and UK Gov.)

All pretty boring stuff I'm afraid but sources are quoted and might help if you need to understand where codes came from and so forth for my PDF form. Probably entirely useless to more people but it might be of some small help for a few.

Instructions from Lagos Navigators (updated June 2017)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/lag...ide-memoir-british-flagged-vessels-t1885.html
Box 2 and Box 14 Owner's Name and Current Address.
Box 3 Print T 2L.
Box 5 Print 1.
Box 15 & 16 Print 'Issued Retrospectively'.
Box 31 Print Private Sailing Yacht followed by Make, Type Name & Build/hull Number.
Box 33 88-03911000 (if you are a sailing yacht).
Box 35 & 38 Gross tonnage (same figure).
Box 44 Lloyds Register Part 1 or SSR number with issue date.
Box 54 Date, Address, Signature of owner.

RYA instructions (updated Sept. 2016) are the same as above except for:
1) GB PR above address in box 2
2) T2L in right hand part of box 1 DECLARATION, not box 3,Forms
3) Print ISSUED RETROSPECTIVELY in red underneath boxes 15 & 17 (No box 16 found)
4) Box 31 make and model of boat, Lloyds Register Part 1 or SSR number
5) Box 44 not mentioned as Pt1 or SSR already in box 31
6) Box 33 different codes
7) Box 54 town, not full address of location where document was signed

Differences
1) I don't see a problem as it's just short for GB Private

2) I used box 1 Declaration, not box 3 (which does say Forms, but Gov. site says T2L is a Declaration)

3) Printing underneath both boxes made the text more readable as it's much larger.
Box 16 only appears in other parts (1-3, 6-8) anyway, not Part 4 and refers to country of origin.

4 & 5) I imagine either way of entering the information would be fine.

6) I checked codes on following page and 88-03911000 did not seem to be correct
The codes I had found tied up with the RYA codes, though mine were 10 digit with 00 as last numbers.
I think 8 digit codes are OK as there are no further sub-divisions and 00 is the only option for last 2 numbers. I might update my PDF form to add 00 at the end of the codes.

I think that the Lagos site figure is just a typo (88 instead of 89). It could be that they are a bit more ambitious with cruising as the code is next to "suborbital and spacecraft launch vehicles".

Codes listed in detail part way down this page (Look for "Open all headings" to expand the list of codes).
https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/headings/8903

 

[LadyInBed]

couldn't actually find Commodity Code 8903940 when I checked, perhaps it has changed or Gov website isn't complete.

Your code seems to be at least one digit short
https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/headings/8903
https://www.trade-tariff.service.go...3911000?currency=EUR&day=29&month=1&year=2019

 

[Mistroma]

Don't know how my reply got deleted.

Yes, you show.the same link I used. See bottom of my post above yours.

Can you say where it appears on the page, I still can't find it.

 

[LadyInBed]

Don't know how my reply got deleted.

Yes, you show.the same link I used. See bottom of my post above yours.

Can you say where it appears on the page, I still can't find it.

Damn! My android editor is crap, it took me 5 goes to edit my post.
What Is the 'it' that you are looking for on the page?

 

[nortada]

Your code seems to be at least one digit short
https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/headings/8903
https://www.trade-tariff.service.go...3911000?currency=EUR&day=29&month=1&year=2019

The commodity code I quote for a 12mtr is copied directly from my completed and date stamped 28 Apr 2017 so clearly it works!

Would add, I suspect any old number would do and yes the HMRC is a completely undecipherable straight line, with no accompanying printed name.

Probably signed off by the cleaner or a visitor.

No off down town Lagos to get my own stamp (I know a Portuguese who can - no surprises there ) and setting up producing T2Ls - fee 1 cybre beer.:encouragement:

I am sure HMRC Salford will be grateful that I am revealing them of this totally pointless task. That is unless you are parked-up in Portugal or Croatia.

Wonder if there will be a market for these stamps in Ireland - North and South

 

[Mistroma]

I couldn't actually find Commodity Code 8903940 when I checked, perhaps it has changed or Gov website isn't complete.

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/headings/8903

I was also having problems, hence my deleted post which quoted your original post. I read it as saying I'd find the code at the link you provided and was replying to point out that's exactly where I had looked. Your later update did change the meaning of your post slightly.

Damn! My android editor is crap, it took me 5 goes to edit my post.
What Is the 'it' that you are looking for on the page?

Obviously, the 'it' was 8903940 which couldn't be found at the link I gave and you also mentioned. I couldn't find anything looking like 8903940, 8903940n or 8903940nnn.

Obviously a bit of cross-editing and screen update delays causing some confusion.

 

[Mistroma]

The commodity code I quote for a 12mtr is copied directly from my completed and date stamped 28 Apr 2017 so clearly it works!

Would add, I suspect any old number would do and yes the HMRC is a completely undecipherable straight line, with no accompanying printed name.

Probably signed off by the cleaner or a visitor.

No off down town Lagos to get my own stamp (I know a Portuguese who can - no surprises there ) and setting up producing T2Ls - fee 1 cybre beer.:encouragement:

I am sure HMRC Salford will be grateful that I am revealing them of this totally pointless task. That is unless you are parked-up in Portugal or Croatia.

Wonder if there will be a market for these stamps in Ireland - North and South

Yes, I doubt they do much more than stamp it and perhaps look at supporting "evidence" (before binning it. Pretty good chance the code was OK several years ago and HMRC made changes afterwards.

I did find the typo in the Lagos site instructions quite amusing with closest matching code giving "suborbital and spacecraft launch vehicles". Hence my comment about their cruising plans being more ambitious than most.

About the stamp thing, does your friend also do Irish passports? My application process seems to have bogged down a bit. An alternative source (bit like "Alternative facts") might be useful.

 

[nortada]

Yes, I doubt they do much more than stamp it and perhaps look at supporting "evidence" (before binning it. Pretty good chance the code was OK several years ago and HMRC made changes afterwards.

I did find the typo in the Lagos site instructions quite amusing with closest matching code giving "suborbital and spacecraft launch vehicles". Hence my comment about their cruising plans being more ambitious than most.

About the stamp thing, does your friend also do Irish passports? My application process seems to have bogged down a bit. An alternative source (bit like "Alternative facts") might be useful.

at supporting "evidence" , What supporting evidence, as Salford directed, I didn't include any supporting evidence or covering letter - just the C88/T2L. The lass there, whose name I will not divulge in open forum was probably, the most helpful civil servant it has ever been my pleasure to deal with.:encouragement:

"suborbital and spacecraft launch vehicles". Yes cruising out of Marina de Lagos takes on a very special meaning. Santa parks up here during the summer. Please don't feed the reindeer's Sagres and Super BoK - it makes them fart!

I am sure an 'Irish' passport could be obtained but not too sure it would stand up to scanning .

But why bother with a Paddy Passport?

Register in Portugal for temporary (5 year) residencia.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?514108-Portugal-loves-us!/page2 #50.

See the motor-home folk are joining the bandwagon.:encouragement: I understand that if you get residencia, for a limited period you may be able to matriculate your vehicle at minimal cost - but as not my part of ship, other subscribers to this forum may be able to shed more light?

See, unlike Spain, post Brexit, in Portugal you should't require an international driving license - could get very busy in Portugal.

 

[Mistroma]

Supporting evidence doesn't require much, though I've seen a variety of things suggested. Not surprised you were able to apply without any as it was almost a one-off exercise in those days. Civil servants do have a habit of finding ways to keep busy as time passes. It seems reasonable they'd add extra requirements once something became a more regular task.

I believe that they do want to see proof that the vessel was supplied in the EU.

I am including:
Bill of Sale and original invoice (with VAT paid shown)
Registration document confirming that Pt.1 reg document has same HIN as the Bill of Sale

VAT is a red herring of course as the T2L doesn't provide proof of VAT payment. It's only there as part of the proof that the boat was supplied in the EU. It won't do any harm to send copies of these documents and I fully expect them to be filed in HMRC's bin.

I have been reading all the very useful stuff you have supplied about Portugal and filed it for future use. Unfortunately, Mistroma is sitting ashore in Greece just now and that restricts my options.

All I can do is try to prepare for a exit without any deal or one with a longer transition period. I can't get to Portugal and setup house before April and don't want buy or rent there whilst eating into time sailing in Greece. The Irish passport gives me another option but didn't cover potential problems about leaving the boat in EU for more than 18 months. The chance of a problem is low but the penalties could be high. It seems reasonable to reduce the risk for the price of a stamp.

I'd probably plan a swift return to Portugal once Brexit terms become clearer. Loved Portugal and will certainly head there at some point. I'll get stuck in the Guadiana for 1-2 months if it's anything like last time.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Supporting evidence doesn't require much, though I've seen a variety of things suggested. Not surprised you were able to apply without any as it was almost a one-off exercise in those days. Civil servants do have a habit of finding ways to keep busy as time passes. It seems reasonable they'd add extra requirements once something became a more regular task.

I believe that they do want to see proof that the vessel was supplied in the EU.

I am including:
Bill of Sale and original invoice (with VAT paid shown)
Registration document confirming that Pt.1 reg document has same HIN as the Bill of Sale

VAT is a red herring of course as the T2L doesn't provide proof of VAT payment. It's only there as part of the proof that the boat was supplied in the EU. It won't do any harm to send copies of these documents and I fully expect them to be filed in HMRC's bin.

I have been reading all the very useful stuff you have supplied about Portugal and filed it for future use. Unfortunately, Mistroma is sitting ashore in Greece just now and that restricts my options.

All I can do is try to prepare for a exit without any deal or one with a longer transition period. I can't get to Portugal and setup house before April and don't want buy or rent there whilst eating into time sailing in Greece. The Irish passport gives me another option but didn't cover potential problems about leaving the boat in EU for more than 18 months. The chance of a problem is low but the penalties could be high. It seems reasonable to reduce the risk for the price of a stamp.

I'd probably plan a swift return to Portugal once Brexit terms become clearer. Loved Portugal and will certainly head there at some point. I'll get stuck in the Guadiana for 1-2 months if it's anything like last time.

DO NOT SEND ORIGINALS, you will not get them back.

For belt and braces, be in an EU Port on Brexit date and keep the evidence.......

 

[Chris_Robb]

Damn! My android editor is crap, it took me 5 goes to edit my post.
What Is the 'it' that you are looking for on the page?

Dont use their mobile view use the version you use on line - much better. I found editing under the mobile view was hopeless.

 

[LadyInBed]

I see that there is a T2L thread going on the Mobo forum.

 

[RupertW]

All of this is irrelevant- proof of Vat status from the UK is worthless as the UK will be a third country so just like the US. Doesn’t matter that it used to be in the EU and was when VAt was paid.

 

[nortada]

All of this is irrelevant- proof of Vat status from the UK is worthless as the UK will be a third country so just like the US. Doesn’t matter that it used to be in the EU and was when VAt was paid.

Well, thank you for resolving this. Your authority?

Others do not agree with you; both here and in the Mobo forum.

Their view is that as VAT has already been paid, provided the vessel remains in the EU no further VAT will be required.

Of course, if you import a vessel post Brexit (if it ever happens) then you may be required to pay VAT/EVA, after 18 months in the EU, on the market value at that time. Understand the rate of EVA varies from country to country?

You raise the US as a case in point. I believe many Americans buy boats in the EU. If VAT has been already paid do they have to again pay EVA on the value of the boat or just the cost of the transaction? To avoid VAT some boats temporarily leave the EU before the 18 point.

Possibly an American subscriber could provide clarification?

On further reflection, could this be a far bigger issue than just boats, with EVA being charged on every item that has been transported from the UK to the EU over the past 40 years?

One assumes the UK would reciprocate by charging VAT on all items from the EU during this period.

A easy solution would be to accept the situation on Brexit Day and apply the new VAT/EVA arrangement from there on?

All speculation.

Thoughts.

 

[Mistroma]

I have to agree with Nortada.

A future problem is unlikely to happen very often but it is an unknown.
The potential financial impact could be quite high
A stamped T2L declaration can be obtained for the cost of a stamp, envelope, some sheets of paper and a little time.

My boat is sitting in Greece and likely to be in the EU for several years. I don't really care if I never have to show a T2L, if it really proves anything or is being completely misused by some officials in EU countries. I applied for a T2L and cannot see a downside.

 

[nortada]

I have to agree with Nortada.

A future problem is unlikely to happen very often but it is an unknown.
The potential financial impact could be quite high
A stamped T2L declaration can be obtained for the cost of a stamp, envelope, some sheets of paper and a little time.

My boat is sitting in Greece and likely to be in the EU for several years. I don't really care if I never have to show a T2L, if it really proves anything or is being completely misused by some officials in EU countries. I applied for a T2L and cannot see a downside.

This is as how I see it.

Whilst having no faith in T2L as proof of payment VAT/EVA, I got one as just another string to my bow.

 

[RupertW]

This is as how I see it.

Whilst having no faith in T2L as proof of payment VAT/EVA, I got one as just another string to my bow.

As an extra hope it's a wise move - it could turn out that the UK's past status as an EU country will allow it to count in the future, or when the boat moved into the EU after it's last UK visit. But that is just hope - the authority that people claim on this just isn't there as nobody has left the EU before us.

My own hope (and it's no more than that) is that our boat has spent it's entire life in the EU, never visiting the UK or any other non EU country and that we paid VAT in an existing and continuing EU country. My citizenship and ships registry should make no difference - but am I completely certain - obviously not.