VAT free in Europe?

[Portofino]

What planet are you on????
Starting another 90 in 180 - What on earth are you talking about?
The rule is for ALL Schengen countries - you must not stay longer than 90 days is any rolling 180 days - it can't be simpler to understand.

And getting a long stay visa - where the hell do you get one of those???

Earth .Where have you been ?
Visa Requirements for Croatia - Croatian & Schengen Visas - Visit Croatia

Find a none schengen , Turkey and some Ex Yugoslavian .Croatia assent is planned mid 2024 so plenty of time .
As a 3 p you can get visa free 90 in 180 or if appropriate get a tourist visa for other than Croatia .Hey i,am just outlining the principle it’s up others to pad out the details of exact which other .

Used Croatia as an example of the principle.
Hop , sorry sail into one of them them .One clock stops the other starts .
Its called the Schengen shuffle .Plenty more on the live aboard section .

So they say Venice is nice this time of the year .I,am sure with a little passage planning you could monthly alternate between the Italian Adriatic and Croatian archipelago. Toss in a couple of rtns to the U.K. and it’s even easier .

Trieste in NE Italy would work very nicely for you btw until Croatia accents to Schengen .

 

[Portofino]

I assume for you people living in England, Wales and Scotland now ( no idea about Northern Ireland) the Eu is the same as it has been for me as a Guernsey resident:

I can keep a boat in the EU not EU VAT paid for up to 18 months then I have to export it out of EU to Channel Islands, Gibraltar , Tunisia, Croatia etc for a day to reset the clock.

Except you people post Brexit can now own a VAT free boat and cruise the EU and anywhere outside England, Scotland or Wales?

As long as we copy you .

 

[Portofino]

So here’s a map of the none Schengen Med .

A £2M new sun squeaker .U.K. passport holder , red duster . VAT free
Where would you stick it ? Needs to be near a green Croatia or grey area .
Well for me Corfu .
Easy to do the former Yugoslavian E Adriatic . S or Adriatic Italy maybe for better year round access .
Venice or Trieste will work even better with flights and its within reasonable driving range from the Channel .
These ^^^ work with the Schengen shuffle , stay in the Med basically as long as you like ....whole summer .

Or if it has to be Spain , you choose after studying the map .
Malta also will work as would Sicily. Paps not for extended Schengen shuffling , N Africa urgh ! But certainly for the 18 month TA trick .
Then there is Turkey / Greece’s works both ways .Twixt the two I would have thought.

 

[chrisrjcox]

That made very little sense to me, but I think you're trying to say that the TA scheme will never be changed because of the knock on effect on Super Yachts, Chartering etc etc.
It would be pretty easy to change it so these are not affected. Just insisting the boat is Tax compliant in your home waters would cover it, as companies etc would be unaffected.

I guess these rules have been there for a longtime and non EU citizens since the beginning have enjoyed this perk, don’t be so fast to remove this non VAT perk for your fellow countryman that how only just broken free there is no need for you to try to give the corrupt EU any silly ideas.

 

[chrisrjcox]

So here’s a map of the none Schengen Med .
View attachment 115814
A £2M new sun squeaker .U.K. passport holder , red duster . VAT free
Where would you stick it ? Needs to be near a green Croatia or grey area .
Well for me Corfu .
Easy to do the former Yugoslavian E Adriatic . S or Adriatic Italy maybe for better year round access .
Venice or Trieste will work even better with flights and its within reasonable driving range from the Channel .
These ^^^ work with the Schengen shuffle , stay in the Med basically as long as you like ....whole summer .

Or if it has to be Spain , you choose after studying the map .
Malta also will work as would Sicily. Paps not for extended Schengen shuffling , N Africa urgh ! But certainly for the 18 month TA trick .
Then there is Turkey / Greece’s works both ways .Twixt the two I would have thought.

I agree it’s easy to slip out of the EU for 90/180 days, we are also planning on flying out to Russia to visit family for a few months each year and ski holiday in Turkey difficult if you hang around the Spanish/French side

 

[Hurricane]

Earth .Where have you been ?
Visa Requirements for Croatia - Croatian & Schengen Visas - Visit Croatia

Find a none schengen , Turkey and some Ex Yugoslavian .Croatia assent is planned mid 2024 so plenty of time .
As a 3 p you can get visa free 90 in 180 or if appropriate get a tourist visa for other than Croatia .Hey i,am just outlining the principle it’s up others to pad out the details of exact which other .

Used Croatia as an example of the principle.
Hop , sorry sail into one of them them .One clock stops the other starts .
Its called the Schengen shuffle .Plenty more on the live aboard section .

So they say Venice is nice this time of the year .I,am sure with a little passage planning you could monthly alternate between the Italian Adriatic and Croatian archipelago. Toss in a couple of rtns to the U.K. and it’s even easier .

Trieste in NE Italy would work very nicely for you btw until Croatia accents to Schengen .

Your posts are so misleading.
The OP was talking about the EU in general.
All you are saying is the bleeding obvious and you don't write in a coherent style.
Personally, I find it very difficult to understand what you are saying.
AFAIK, at the moment, there isn't a visa system available that would allow a UK resident to stay for more than 90 days in any 180 in Schengen countries.
But I bow to your superior knowledge - just answer in plain English - please.

 

[chrisrjcox]

The likes of Bezos will never pay Vat on their boats, they haven't in the past and they're unlikely to in the future.
For their boats and the amount of time they spend on them, they will have a genuine company set up and will easily comply with the rules etc.

As I'm usually resident in the UK I can have my UK reg car in Ireland for 12 months at a time. But it has to be taxed etc in the UK. It would be quite simple to apply the same rules to boats, you have to be compliant wherever you are resident.
Which means for a brit you need to have UK vat paid.
For a super yacht, they would setup the company somewhere with 0 vat on boats, which they are probably already doing.

If it happens in small numbers it won't be a problem, but if huge numbers of brits are taking advantage it won't be long before they tweak the rules.

Am I right in saying that you are happy that ultra rich people can slip out of paying £70M in VAT and break the rule stating their personal super yacht is a rental, while someone like us that just happens to buy a untaxed boat for £50K has to now pay the tax? A much better change would be for these countries to understand that VAT should only be added to new products or when sold from a business to an individual, you don’t pay VAT each time you buy a car or a second hand TV, better to enforce VAT on all new purchases, then as normal a business purchase, say a charter company, if VAT registered can claim it back, but it’s still classed as being paid, so when sold it would be VAT paid, nasty extortionist governments.

 

[James L]

Am I right in saying that you are happy that ultra rich people can slip out of paying £70M in VAT and break the rule stating their personal super yacht is a rental, while someone like us that just happens to buy a untaxed boat for £50K has to now pay the tax? A much better change would be for these countries to understand that VAT should only be added to new products or when sold from a business to an individual, you don’t pay VAT each time you buy a car or a second hand TV, better to enforce VAT on all new purchases, then as normal a business purchase, say a charter company, if VAT registered can claim it back, but it’s still classed as being paid, so when sold it would be VAT paid, nasty extortionist governments.

I'm not saying I'm happy about it, but it's what will happen. They should have to pay Vat like the rest of us but they will be able to structure their companies so they can stick by whatever laws are applicable.
Why would it still be classed as paid if a charter company has claimed it back. It most certainly isn't paid.
The fact that you could buy a boat vat free and use it in the EU was a loophole in a rule meant to ensure you didn't have to pay Vat multiple times.
While only a few are abusing the loophole it will be ignored, but at some point a politician or over zealous tax official will get fed up of seeing Brits paying less for their boats than locals and the loophole will be closed.
Answering portos point above, it won't be the UK that gets the Vat, if they do change the rule, anyone keeping a boat in the EU would pay EU vat so they could sell the boat easily.

 

[DavidJ]

i can understand avoiding VAT if you want to spend your time boating around Adriatic Italy and Croatia (and it’s lovely, we did it for years in the 1980’s ....... Yugoslavia then!)
But to buy a lovely new boat and spend your cruising time planning what VAT zone you must visit next is a nonsense........just buy a 20% smaller boat pay the tax and enjoy the freedom.

 

[julians]

I seem to recall back in the 80's or maybe early 90's that this sort of thing (avoiding the vat by ensuring that the boat was out of the country for a period) was quite common in spain - or maybe I'm mis remembering?

I guess if your 'base' is near a none eu locattion then its quite straightforward to disappear for a day every 18 months, but if you're not then its not going to be viable.

I presume that just sailing out into international waters is not classed as leaving the EU - or is it, because then it becomes viable for a lot of people.

 

[Hurricane]

I'm not saying I'm happy about it, but it's what will happen. They should have to pay Vat like the rest of us but they will be able to structure their companies so they can stick by whatever laws are applicable.
Why would it still be classed as paid if a charter company has claimed it back. It most certainly isn't paid.
The fact that you could buy a boat vat free and use it in the EU was a loophole in a rule meant to ensure you didn't have to pay Vat multiple times.
While only a few are abusing the loophole it will be ignored, but at some point a politician or over zealous tax official will get fed up of seeing Brits paying less for their boats than locals and the loophole will be closed.
Answering portos point above, it won't be the UK that gets the Vat, if they do change the rule, anyone keeping a boat in the EU would pay EU vat so they could sell the boat easily.

I think this has always been an option.
i.e. buying a boat within a VAT registered company VAT free and claiming it to be used for charter.
But when you use it yourself, you have to pay (the going rate) to use it and I expect you would be paying VAT on the rental/charter payments.
If you own the company that owns the boat, you could use it for free but I understand that would be a benefit in kind and declarable on your tax returns etc.

 

[DavidJ]

I presume that just sailing out into international waters is not classed as leaving the EU - or is it, because then it becomes viable for a lot of people.

I think you’re right BUT when pulled over by the Guardia Financia I don’t think showing them your AIS plot will really cut it

 

[Hurricane]

A friend of mine has just bought a brand new sailing boat and is going through this exact process.
He paid for some professional advice and is having the boat delivered from the UK into Guernsey ex VAT
His idea is then to sail it into the Med on its own bottom.
I haven't spoken to him recently but I think he intends doing some paperwork in Valencia before moving up to Sant Carles.
There seems to be a process that he needs to go through when he brings the boat into the EU under TA.
I think he said that only major ports can do this but I will be finding out as he goes through the process.
If this is the case, it would seem that just sailing 12 miles out and coming back wouldn't be enough at the end of the TA period.

It maybe in my friends case that he can "check out" of Valencia in 18 months time.
Sail away into international waters and then come back and "check in" again.
I will be asking him but I think he intends to go to Eastern Med/Turkey and do his cruising there.

 

[chrisrjcox]

i can understand avoiding VAT if you want to spend your time boating around Adriatic Italy and Croatia (and it’s lovely, we did it for years in the 1980’s ....... Yugoslavia then!)
But to buy a lovely new boat and spend your cruising time planning what VAT zone you must visit next is a nonsense........just buy a 20% smaller boat pay the tax and enjoy the freedom.

Hi DavidJ,

I'm not specifically condoning avoidance of VAT, however if what you buy and where the boat is, dictates that its not required to be paid, why buy a boat that is 20% smaller? or got out of your way to move yourself into an area where the tax is due. Accountants of all businesses daily manoeuvre for tax avoidance, which isn't illegal, tax evasion is.

Also, if we as brits are only due to pay VAT on entering UK waters, I don't see what the Adriatic Italy and Croatia has to do with it, but I suppose we are all doing our own thing and have our lives in the back of our mind. We as a family are going to be living on a boat to travel and we will not be working, so moving around within the rules is fine for us, there is also Turkey, Moroco, Tunisia etc. the EU and UK is not the be all and end.

Unless I'm not understanding the rules of VAT? But its not specifically my problem that the VAT system lets a business buy a boat and either claim the VAT back, or even not pay it, its for that tax system. And I see the tax systems have been made so that they can continue to charge VAT multiple times on old boats, by way of striping the VAT certification if you don't return within 3 years, in the UK example, personally wouldn't be returning my boat to the UK every three years, if I'm travelling the world, just for tax reasons. So I see no point in buying specifically a VAT paid boat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at all boats, not specifically non-VAT paid, but I have learned here, that I can buy one. Before this week I wasn't even contemplating it.

 

[chrisrjcox]

A friend of mine has just bought a brand new sailing boat and is going through this exact process.
He paid for some professional advice and is having the boat delivered from the UK into Guernsey ex VAT
His idea is then to sail it into the Med on its own bottom.
I haven't spoken to him recently but I think he intends doing some paperwork in Valencia before moving up to Sant Carles.
There seems to be a process that he needs to go through when he brings the boat into the EU under TA.
I think he said that only major ports can do this but I will be finding out as he goes through the process.
If this is the case, it would seem that just sailing 12 miles out and coming back wouldn't be enough at the end of the TA period.

It maybe in my friends case that he can "check out" of Valencia in 18 months time.
Sail away into international waters and then come back and "check in" again.
I will be asking him but I think he intends to go to Eastern Med/Turkey and do his cruising there.

Why wouldn't people just take the options as a fun trip, and dock into a non-EU marina for one night, and go back? Seems so simple, but again it depends on what your a re doing with your life, if you are trying to live in the EU, while pretending you are a EU citizen, then you have to change your mindset and change your nationality.

When I say "you" I don't mean "you" specifically

 

[DavidJ]

Hi DavidJ,

I'm not specifically condoning avoidance of VAT, however if what you buy and where the boat is, dictates that its not required to be paid, why buy a boat that is 20% smaller

Exactly my point. If you want to be in the beautiful Adriatic then take advantage of the VAT saving.
I guess my point is “go where you want to go” and if that means having to pay VAT on your new boat (ie your budget is reduced) then so be it.

 

[chrisrjcox]

Exactly my point. If you want to be in the beautiful Adriatic then take advantage of the VAT saving.
I guess my point is “go where you want to go” and if that means having to pay VAT on your new boat (ie your budget is reduced) then so be it.

I'm still stuggling to understand what you are talking about specifically, what does the Adriatic have to do with anything?

 

[James L]

I'm still stuggling to understand what you are talking about specifically, what does the Adriatic have to do with anything?

If you're in the Adriatic then it's easy to pop into a non EU marina for a night, not so simple in the south of France.

 

[James L]

I think this has always been an option.
i.e. buying a boat within a VAT registered company VAT free and claiming it to be used for charter.
But when you use it yourself, you have to pay (the going rate) to use it and I expect you would be paying VAT on the rental/charter payments.
If you own the company that owns the boat, you could use it for free but I understand that would be a benefit in kind and declarable on your tax returns etc.

In my mind that's fair enough if you're paying the tax on the value of your use of the boat, it's just like chartering.
I wonder what the status is if the company is loss making. I know for holiday rentals here you can claim everything as an expense but if the business never makes a profit they can claim back the tax. I guess that would only happen if they thought you were using the business to do up your own holiday home but not really letting it out.
It does seem like it will be all above board to use the TA in this way, I just wonder how long they will allow it for or how difficult they will make it. It's the age old question of tax reducing economic activity and getting the balance between evasion and avoidance to get the maximum take without disrupting business too much.

 

[James L]

Hi DavidJ,

I'm not specifically condoning avoidance of VAT, however if what you buy and where the boat is, dictates that its not required to be paid, why buy a boat that is 20% smaller? or got out of your way to move yourself into an area where the tax is due. Accountants of all businesses daily manoeuvre for tax avoidance, which isn't illegal, tax evasion is.

Also, if we as brits are only due to pay VAT on entering UK waters, I don't see what the Adriatic Italy and Croatia has to do with it, but I suppose we are all doing our own thing and have our lives in the back of our mind. We as a family are going to be living on a boat to travel and we will not be working, so moving around within the rules is fine for us, there is also Turkey, Moroco, Tunisia etc. the EU and UK is not the be all and end.

Unless I'm not understanding the rules of VAT? But its not specifically my problem that the VAT system lets a business buy a boat and either claim the VAT back, or even not pay it, its for that tax system. And I see the tax systems have been made so that they can continue to charge VAT multiple times on old boats, by way of striping the VAT certification if you don't return within 3 years, in the UK example, personally wouldn't be returning my boat to the UK every three years, if I'm travelling the world, just for tax reasons. So I see no point in buying specifically a VAT paid boat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at all boats, not specifically non-VAT paid, but I have learned here, that I can buy one. Before this week I wasn't even contemplating it.

You probably need professional advice on that one.
You need to be sure the UK counts as your country of residence even if you're not returning there regularly. Plus you will likely be dealing with a lot of different tax systems.
You won't have to worry about the 18 months as you'll have to be out of the EU after 90 days. It might make your Journey problematic if you want to travel the Med and have to leave the EU for 3 months out of every 6.
You might be better off looking for a Visa to an EU country and buy an EU vat paid boat and be free to spend as long as you want in EU waters.