VAT Documents

[clivew05]

Hi There has been quite a few questions about documentation needed when crossing the channel lately and this is something that I wanted or had hoped to do later this year.

One of the documents that appears to be mentioned a lot is a VAT paid document - where would I get this from? I bought the boat from a broker last January and have an invoice but it does not have any VAT listed on it .. I have checked all of the paperwork that I have for the boat and cannot see any original invoice (from when new) stating VAT paid? Any idea where I can get this from?

Looking forward to any info you can provide.

Thanks
Clive

 

[peterb26]

How old is the boat?

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
How old is the boat?

[/ QUOTE ]

was Built in late (september) 1996 and was first purchased in 1997.

 

[gjgm]

the short story is, you cant. And thats why this whole VAT issue on boats is one big mess. I spoke to customs and excise the other day.. proof (or deemed proof to be accurate) requires the original invoice when the boat was bought and VAT paid. So, what chance do you have in tracking down the original invoice from the first buyer-if he still strangley still has it- -assuming VAT was paid at that point? Probabaly very little if it wasnt made available at your time of purchase. I think your best bet is the original dealer, and see if they can dig out their COPY of the original invoice. Then, ask them if a director could sign that VAT was paid via this invoice. Not 100pct proof, but about as good as it might get. Unfortunately, the dealer may well say they arent going digging through years of paperwork.
Its a hopeless mess really.One piece of paper only. No wonder the RYA is working with C+E about a solution, though from C+e point of view, proof is proof, its not their problem if people cant keep track of the papers.
In your case, it doesnt mean VAT wasnt paid, its just that you cant prove it was.
One small point, VAT is the responsibility of the country where the boat is registered-presumably UK, in your case. Not sure how it would go down with Johnny Foreigner, but in fact proof of VAT isnt actually their business if the boat is UK registered.
This is why it is so vital physically to see this original invoice before buying the boat. Promises of its here somewhere, dont cut much ice.
Try the dealer...

 

[gjgm]

VAT invoices need to be kept for 5 years is it?, Though it seems very unclear that argument works on a boat- though I dont know why...

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
Try the dealer...

[/ QUOTE ]

Just phoned the dealer and gave him the details - unfortunately they dont keep paperwork after 6 years - so I they have no chance of finding the original invoice - I have also now called the previous and first owner of the boat - he also does not have the invoice - but says (he would) that it was paid at the time ....

So as I have no chance of ever getting real proof that VAT has been paid does this mean that I can never go to jooly old foreigner land!...... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[glenndraper]

Hi Seawings- You can but unfortunately IF the customs and excise board you (unlikely) they could impound you until you pay the vat on the value of the boat as it stands today- You could get a friendly trader to value it (in writing) as being as low as possible and pay over VAT to your local customs office - GET A CERT (stamped) if you do.

 

[Geoffs]

Hate to be all doom and gloom, but also means you may have a problem selling the boat, when the time comes. Any purchaser will not want to be in the position you are now.

 

[clivew05]

Oh well, guess cruising around essex is not such a bad idea - hope the UK customs dont board me - also means I cant go up the Thames I guess as they board you there - in fact Ive decided just to moor it in the Marina - providing they dont ask for a VAT cert and have lunch occasionally ..... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Some form of proof that the boat was in the UK in the past can help, mooring invoice or similar.

 

[miket]

I assume you have tried the builder, Hardy.
Broom will issue a certified copy of the original invoice and/ or a build certificate.
This should be adequate.
Also, if you are a member of the RYA, give their legal department a call. I think their website covers this also.

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
.... Hardy.
Broom will issue a certified copy of the original invoice and/ or a build certificate.
This should be adequate.
Also, if you are a member of the RYA, give their legal department a call. I think their website covers this also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah! Hardy I beleive sold the boat originally to Ancater - and Ancaster sold it on to its last owner - so - the original sale from hardy is the one that I need then and not the one to the first (Private) owner ..... I will try that tack and see what I can find out ...

Cheers /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[gjgm]

someone pointed out that C+E decided a while ago that a boat sale between two private individuals would be adequate as deeming VAT paid. Relief all round. Then apparently, they decided perhaps that wasnt too watertight, and withdrew it.
It would be interesting to hear from RYA how discussions are going on this. Perhaps its not really that much of an issue in UK as C+E dont go round spot checking.. they d only investigate with good cause.

 

[bendyone]

I got a certifed copy of the Vat cert from Hunters for my boat dated 1985 when the boat was made, so maybe Hardys will be able to help

 

[clivew05]

Just spoke to Hardy's they tell me as it was "sold" to a dealer they would not have charge VAT at their end - however the dealer would have charged VAT to the private buyer so he should have the VAT cert/invoice. Unfortunately he does not as I have already asked him - he does not havea the original invoice showing VAT .... I do have most of the other paperwork though (not that that helps me here) .. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[gjgm]

as I feared- after all if he head it to hand, he would have handed it over with the other paperwork.
I m not aware there is anything you can now do. Anyone discussed this type of issue with RYA ?

 

[AdeOlly]

I don't understand that; surely Hardy would have invoiced Ancasta at 'trade' price and would have charged VAT on that? Thus Hardy should have an invoice on their records showing VAT, if they've kept them from that far back that is.

 

[Sneds]

Have to agree, The builder will have to have charged the dealer VAT unless the dealer was abroad. If the dealer was in the UK he would have paid an invoice with VAT added on the bottom.
If the dealer sold the boat abroard no VAT would have been paid but it would have been charged to the buyer by his country's government. Assuming it was in Europe.
Bit of a mess really!
I have no VAT invoice with my boat, but we are at least her 5th owner. I have no problem with this.
Sorry but I think you'll strugle to get the invoice you want, even if you found it I guess you would only be able to have a copy and this would be deemed unacceptable by Jonny Foreigner!
My advice? Live with it and also contact the RYa for advice if you feel you need it. The RYA joining fee is a lot less than a tax expert/lawyer will charge you!

Good luck

 

[mont]

FWIW .....
After my recent experiences of establishing VAT status .....
VAT on secondhand boats bought and sold between private individuals is a very grey area and the EU seizure stories abound (bit like all the boats sinking daily because of osmosis).
My enquiries of the nice guy at C&E who specialises in Marine VAT was verbally that the UK are not particularly interested with secondhand stuff. He did suggest though that any information relating to the history of the boat and previous owners always helps build a picture. He considers that UK Part One reg is very useful to fully establish proper ownership (bit like a car V5 log book) as is any builders information.
He said where a boat does not have any real history on ownership / paperwork then it only leads them to think its just arrived from outside EU and alarm bells start ringing and the VAT man comes a calling.
Would suggest you should therefore build up as much info as possible including a statement from previous owners as to where and when they bought and sold. Also go Part One as full proof of ownership and age of vessel.
Brokers helping well ......
Whilst this wont sort out the principle issue it will at least make it a much lighter grey for you and for future.
Would be interested in hearing the specifics on the apparent daily seizures and retrospective VAT / TVA levies etc. Would accept that there have been cases of EU Customs getting snotty when someone truns up in a Port without any paperwork but equally try EU air travel without a Passport or any ID ....

 

[clivew05]

Thanks to all so far, I am a fully paid up member of the RYA so this is something I can follow up - and as to history - I have just about everything from her initial purchase - even pre delivery check list from Manufacturers - virtually every bill that has been paid - original stamped itinerly and all of the detials on engines and outdrives ( stamped with check stamp ) in fact everything (including Part 1 cert proving that I am the owner and her registry) but no VAT documentation??

Still not sure If I can go to France in her and not get her conviscated or have to pay a hefy 17.5K to get her home ...

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