vat docs abroad

[ColinR]

The advice is to have proof of vat paid when abroad (ie France). My boat was home completed in 1981 and I bought her secondhand in '98. I dont have any vat docs. Does anyone know if this is a problem? I've sailed often enough to France and always take Bill of Sale, Insurance docs etc althoughI've never been asked to show them.

Colin

 

[PeterGibbs]

It is most unlikely that a EU national with the papers you have and a boat that is clearly not new out of the mould will be challenged by European customs and excise: that is not a guarantee. Showing that the boat was in use in the EU in 1981 will be adequate for all officials that I have ever encountered. No VAT will have been paid on first completion in that year, nor should it.

The 1998 bill of sale is, of course, of limited value in this regard and merely shows that you have a fair claim to be the present owner.

PS ALWAYS take original docs with you - copies will definitely make a strain of a non-event inspection!

PWG

 

[aph]

Cruising the Med for the last 13 years in a 1981 boat. Been in and out of EU and non EU ports and never been asked. Dont worry about it.

 

[Magic_Sailor]

I don't fully understand the ins and outs of the VAT thing but - I'd be a bit careful in France if I were you.

Last year, in Carentan and St Vaast, I was witness to some pretty threatening and dour behaviour by the Douanes or whatever the authorities are called - on both occasions the skipper was frog marched off (which I guess isn't that surprising!)

Joking apart - lots of tear from SWMBO left on board.

Magic

 

[tcm]

Ok, I've ben in med a few years. In some ports (usually west of toulon, and marseilles a favourite, and nice big boat also a favourite) the gendarmes will check things out. They write out a big form, with passport numbers, owners detail registry, insurance, and maybe even check the safety gear. Actually, if the boat was stolen or dangerous this sort of thing would catch it.

Vat-wise, they haven't a clue what they are looking at. Get this very very clear: in the UK you can have a VAT invoice for the boat, get agreement from the VAT office that vat has been paid, then proceed to reclaim vat, reclaim vat and then of course reclaim the vat (so it now ISN'T vat paid).

Various vat rules/dates conspire to confuse the issue, and the authorities. Evenetaully, i got sick of showing that yes see, that s the invoice, and that's the bill of sale and that the insurance and there's an invocie cos the damn thing is that the poor froggie has to try and find something to put in each box of the forms. One of which you would like to be "proof" that vat is paid. So, I would get a nice declaration, made by myself. This is a very grand affair in France.


Reference: evat/1998/london/government number: 45634523-9



"WITNESS this confirmation and declaration on this DAY (ages ago, after you bought ) during the reign of Queen Elizabeth The second of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Defender of the Faith and Empresss of India.

The British Vessel (boatname) has been transferred in good faith is declared free of lien, encumberance and

 

[tcm]

Ok, I've ben in med a few years. In some ports (usually west of toulon, and marseilles a favourite, and nice boat also a favourite) the gendarmes will check things out. I've had this once in channel, three times in the med, tho many have never been tackled. The aurthorities write out a big form, with passport numbers, owners detail registry, insurance, and maybe even check the safety gear. Actually, if the boat was stolen or dangerous this sort of thing would catch it.
Oh, and they do have discretionary powers: I wa fined 100 quid on the spot for not having original papers on the boat.

Vat-wise, they haven't a clue what they are looking at. Get this very very clear: in the UK you can have a VAT invoice for the boat, pay it entirely, get agreement from the VAT office that vat has been paid, then proceed to reclaim vat, reclaim vat and then of course it wouldn't be vat paid. Hence, there's no such legal document as a Vat-paid boat document: cos all boats will have a vat invoice. In france, I beleive that the registry sorts it out - you have a different coloured registration document if you reclaim vat, you don't pay luxury tax, and you can use the duty free fuel.

With foreigners, various vat rules/dates conspire to confuse the issue, and the authorities. Evenetaully, i got sick of showing that yes see, that s the invoice, and that's the bill of sale and that the insurance and there's an invocie... cos the poor froggie has to try and find something to put in each box of the forms. One of which he would like to be "proof" that vat is paid. So, I would get a nice declaration, made by myself, but not obviously so. This is a very grand affair in France.

Reference: evat/1998/london/government number: 45634523-9

"WITNESS this confirmation and declaration on this DAY (ages ago, after you bought ) during the reign of Queen Elizabeth The second of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Defender of the Faith and Empresss of India.

The British Vessel (boatname) has been transferred in good faith is declared free of lien, encumberance and mortgage and that for the puposes of travel through the European Community is confirmed VAT tax paid, TTC included with the purchase price.

Dated :
location:
time:
declaration: (write in you own handwriing"i declare the above to be totally true and factual, so help me god")
signature:
witness:
winess address:
Notary Public stamp (or just any stamp)
some more signatures here below, with dates a couple of weeks later, in a different pen colours.

 

[stubate]

love it!! just love it.

used to work in africa, any smell of a typewriter and official "stamp" would do the trick.
they were so used to the dead hand of beaurocracy that you could turn it back on them.
s

 

[AndrewB]

How SAD!

You, or the owner at the time, were supposed to have applied for a SAD (Single Administrative Document) around the time the new VAT rules were implemented. To do so you had to submit evidence that the yacht was first used before 1985 and was in the EU on the qualifying date (31.12.92, from memory).

In the UK, Customs quickly gave up issuing them on the grounds that demand was higher than they could be bothered to cope with. Thereafter if you went down on bended knee and did a thorough brown nose job, they could be persuaded to write an official letter that sort agreed to let you off (if anyone could fathom the legalese).

At certain times some port authorities have been tough on VAT. I've been asked twice, once in Portugal, once in France. But the moment we said the yacht was built before 1985, they lost interest. On the other hand, I once saw a British yacht impounded in Portugal because it had no evidence, so it can happen.

 

[JamesS]

A useful document 'UK Guide for Yachts' produced by HM Customs & Excise available from their National Advice Centre on 0845 010 9000.

Cheers

 

[Observer]

Or online at

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/catalogue/catalogue.htm>http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/catalogue/catalogue.htm</A>

Notice number 8

 

[Observer]

VAT law

<<<and then of course it wouldn't be vat paid>>>

It's a commonly held but mistaken belief that the fact that VAT has been paid and subsequently recovered by a VAT registered person means that a boat is not "VAT paid". It is.

Thus:

1. VAT registered person ("company") purchases a boat (say from a dealer) and pays VAT and subsequently recovers VAT;

2. Company sells the boat to a private (non-registered) person. Company should issue a VAT invoice and account for the output VAT. Private person would use the VAT invoice as 'proof' of VAT status.

However, if company does not issue VAT invoice and/or wrongly/fraudulently fails to account for the output tax, it is company which is liable, not the purchaser. The 'VAT paid' status of the boat is established by the payment of VAT on its original purchase or the proper accounting for VAT when it enters the EU. Subsequent sales (within the EC) are irrelevant.

Admittedly, this argument may not help private person who is confronted by sceptical French customs - but it is correct statement of EC-wide VAT law. (If private person can show the original VAT invoice, this should be sufficient. Thus, if buying a boat from a private person, one should ask for the original invoice.)

 

[tcm]

Re: VAT law

Is this the same in France? I'm not sure if it is. I think its the respopnsibility of the owner/buyer to pay VAT, not the responsibility of vendor to ensure that it is charged correctly.

 

[Stingo]

Re: No wonder this country is ...

No wonder this country is ungovernable. There are too many laws and regulations and that was just in that section of customs & excise. My mind boggles ...

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you

 

[Observer]

Re: VAT law

It's always the responsibility of the seller to account for output tax on his sales. Otherwise, if a company which goes bust owing VAT authorities £millions, the customers (maybe private, maybe business, maybe UK, maybe France etc. matters not) get hit with double tax.

 

[Observer]

Re: No wonder this country is ...

Hourly rate of audit partner major accounting firm: £250-£350 ish

Hourly rate of VAT partner major accounting firm: £550-650 ish

Says it all?

 

[Stingo]

Re: No wonder this country is ...

I am in the wrong business. How long does it take to become a VAT partner?

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you

 

[Observer]

Re: VAT law

Another example.

If I (as a private person or VAT registered business) buy goods from a VAT registered person who wrongly fails to charge me VAT on it (say zero rate when it should be standard rate), it doesn't affect his liability to account for output tax on the selling price. He may or may not be able to require me to pay the tax subsequently (when the mistake is discovered) - that's a matter of contract.

 

[Observer]

Re: No wonder this country is ...

And the horrible reality is:- if you're in business, you're expected (required) to know how ALL or ANY of that applies to your business. Of course, you can always pay your friendly VAT partner £600 an hour to tell you.