VAT and Bill of Sale ?

[davei]

I am seriously considering purchasing a 42 Moody.
The seller has the Builders Certificate and the Original Bill of Sale from AH Moody to the original purchaser in 1988
BUT the VAT is not mentioned on the Bill of Sale - just the total sales amount.
Its on a form XS79
Any views anyone?
Is this good enough to keep the French etc off my case.
Yes I am going to buy it in the UK and am aware that VAT onn the transaction would be the juristction of UK authorities but......
Thanks
Dave

 

[sailorman]

I am seriously considering purchasing a 42 Moody.
The seller has the Builders Certificate and the Original Bill of Sale from AH Moody to the original purchaser in 1988
BUT the VAT is not mentioned on the Bill of Sale - just the total sales amount.
Its on a form XS79
Any views anyone?
Is this good enough to keep the French etc off my case.
Yes I am going to buy it in the UK and am aware that VAT onn the transaction would be the juristction of UK authorities but......
Thanks
Dave

are you buying through a broker, if so he will sort it out. thats what he is paid for

 

[wotayottie]

Is this good enough to keep the French etc off my case.
Yes I am going to buy it in the UK and am aware that VAT onn the transaction would be the juristction of UK authorities but......
Thanks
Dave

No it isnt. Not in the real world and not if by any accident you upset them enough for them to want to be difficult. No doubt Tranona will be along in a moment to explain in detail why you should not worry but personally I would simply not want to have to even try to argue the rights and wrongs with some scurvy foreign customs man in his language and no doubt at my expense. Look at this thread to see what I mean and thats in Paddy land where things are normally very relaxed.

There are lots of boats about. Get one where there isnt a problem.

 

[davei]

Thats my concern - the scabby foreign jobs worth who has a bad day
No broker involved......hummmmm

 

[sailorman]

Thats my concern - the scabby foreign jobs worth who has a bad day
No broker involved......hummmmm

Nasty, those foreign Jonnys
why not stay local then

 

[davei]

Nasty, those foreign Jonnys
why not stay local then

Lack of UK sunshine main reason and done Brixham and South Coast to death

 

[sailorman]

Lack of UK sunshine main reason and done Brixham and South Coast to death

sort it then

Let Jonic of this parish handle your purchase for you

 

[Steve N]

If the boat is UK VAT paid then you should be able to get an HM Revenue & Customs VAT reciept (or an official copy thereof) with it.

We just bought a boat and it came with this to prove its VAT status.

 

[davei]

If the boat is UK VAT paid then you should be able to get an HM Revenue & Customs VAT reciept (or an official copy thereof) with it.

We just bought a boat and it came with this to prove its VAT status.

Thats the problem - the owner does not have the original VAT receipt - even though he purchased it from new

 

[Otter]

The issue might affect resale because of the enduring myth about this matter. No one has ever been able to point to a case of a UK national being fined for non production of a VAT certificate on a private yacht bought privately. There are one or two stories of friends of friends but no first hand experience of this so called concern. It's a lovely enduring myth that might bite you on resale but not before.

The Irish case mentioned is about an Irish national seeking to import a yacht without any VAT status.

 

[Boo2]

are you buying through a broker, if so he will sort it out. thats what he is paid for

If there's no evidence of VAT at first sale then there's jack the broker can do to change that.

Boo2

 

[robbieg]

Lots more to worry about....

I would be considering it as part of the package of risks when buying a boat-when you buy a boat (despite a survey) you could be unlucky the rig could fall down, engine fail and you could be the unlucky test case re VAT. I suspect the first two risks are more likely than the last!. If you are really concerned ask the vendor to warrant that VAT was paid and give you a signed statement to that affect. Couple that with an indemnity and in the highly unlikely event you have a problem you can go back to him.

 

[Three kings]

The Irish case mentioned is about an Irish national seeking to import a yacht without any VAT status.

Not really. The yacht in question was sold from new to a UK citizen with an invoice which has the total price marked in the 'standard rate' column, not the zero rated column, but... the VAT is not shown separately, just as part of the overall price.

Then sold to another UK citizen with an MCA bill of sale and put on Part 1.

Then sold to me with an MCA bill of sale.

The Irish official accepts that my paper trail is extensive but somebody in Moody's slipped up when preparing the paperwork. That was 28 years ago!!

 

[jonic]

It's not a myth.

Its rare but the possibility exists.

More so if you are coming from outside the EU and back again.

I know of a yacht charged VAT on entry to the Azores because the VAT paperwork was not accepted.

I know of yachts asked to move on (out of the country) because the paperwork was incorrect.

I know of owners refused finance.
(I had to help fight the finance co with one of them, to get the decision undone.)

I have been told of fines in Portugal (but don't know those ones but it was a reliable source)

I was amazed at a VAT conference when we were told by an HMRC spokesman that EU states can now collect on each others behalf so carrying a Bill of Sale between two private individuals from the UK no longer guaranteed foreign customs would lose interest.

I have also been told by an HMRC spokesman that the possibility exists for them to seize the goods if they suspect non payment and a current owner would have to take on a civil case against any previous owner.( Never happened as far as I know.)

If you buy an expensive boat with no record of VAT payment and start moving it between EU and non EU ports there is a risk.

It may be small and certainly re-sale or finance is more likely to give problems but the risk is there.

 

[jonic]

If there's no evidence of VAT at first sale then there's jack the broker can do to change that.

Boo2

No we can, I have fixed dozens with a bit of detective work.

Some for forumites on here.

 

[davei]

No we can, I have fixed dozens with a bit of detective work.

Some for forumites on here.

Moody's ?

 

[jonic]

Moody's ?

Yes

You can sometimes get certified copies

 

[Boo2]

No we can, I have fixed dozens with a bit of detective work.

If the evidence exists and you can dig it up then that is a useful service and hats off to you for that.

But what I meant by my post was that if the evidence does not exist then there is nothing a broker can do to fix the situation. Even a dealer could only generate a VAT receipt for the second hand price, and the entire VAT at initial purchase might theoretically still be demanded by a zealous customs officer.

Boo2

 

[awol]

Even if you had a piece of paper with VAT how would you really know it was genuine? A bill from Moody and a scanner/printer could be a solution to what some don't see as a problem.

 

[jonic]

If the evidence exists and you can dig it up then that is a useful service and hats off to you for that.

But what I meant by my post was that if the evidence does not exist then there is nothing a broker can do to fix the situation. Even a dealer could only generate a VAT receipt for the second hand price, and the entire VAT at initial purchase might theoretically still be demanded by a zealous customs officer.

Boo2

Sorry I understand what you mean now.

If it does not exist anywhere (or worse never did) then that is an issue. The onus is on the owner to prove VAT was paid if challenged.

On a number of occasions I have been able to find something in an archive somewhere or put together an evidence trail. It's time consuming so it's not free and by it's very nature there can be no guarantee of success so I halve the charge if we hit a solid dead end.