Using bladder tanks in the biges for extra fuel capacity ?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Good idea in principle - in fact, some long range vessels are built like that from the ground up, i.e. with double hull and integral tanks.
But I'm not sure I would go that far in a retrofitting like the one BartW did on BA - if nothing else, because I'd rather be able to inspect the bilge bottom without dismantling half boat...

Re. the fuel barge debate, aside from the fact that they should offer such service outside territorial waters, hence making the refuel bumpy at best and plain impossible at worst, I suspect that it's not worth for the very simple reason that the most appealing market - i.e. large vessels which can take a lot of fuel - already can access tax free fuel just about anywhere, being registered as commercial boats.
Actually, it also takes a bit of bureaucracy on top of the registration alone, but that's normally worth the hassle for this type of boats, which btw are normally crewed.

Plus the fact that, in theory, any pleasure boat buying duty free fuel in international waters would have to pay duty on that fuel once it entered the national waters of an EU country. Still it was a good idea for about 5 minutes

 

[MapisM]

Plus the fact that, in theory, any pleasure boat buying duty free fuel in international waters would have to pay duty on that fuel once it entered the national waters of an EU country.

I'm not aware of such rule, are you sure it's valid EU-wide?
As you know, southern Sardinia is not far from Tunisia, where IIRC diesel prices are somewhere between 50 and 60 eurocent/liter.
So, unsurprisingly, there are boaters who go there and fill the tank in the process, though I also heard of some troubles with the fuel quality, for the sake of completeness.
Anyway, none of them ever told me that - even just as a theoretical rule - a declaration should be done, and duties paid upon re-entrance.
I would think that as long as you are dealing with fuel stored in the boat tank, meant for feeding the engines (as opposed to commercial boats transporting fuel in pallet tanks, drums or whatever, which obviously must go through custom clearance), that is accepted/tolerated.
Also because checking whether the content of boat tanks actually comes from Tunisia or anywhere else would be a mission impossible, for the Coast Guard or any other EU authorities....

 

[BartW]

Good going Bartw. How many total litres of fuel will BA carry when this project is finished?

BA is standard fitted with 5500l fuel tanks
for now we have added 2 bladder tanks, which can have max 2 x 470l depending where these are positioned

in master bedroom bilge compartment its max 2 x 350l
If i pull the tanks out this compartment and place them near the bed its full 470l x2
below the side cabins is more space but more difficlut acces, >470l x2

I'm planning to buy two more tanks of 470l
so than I can have a total of 7000l ...7300l depending where the tanks are placed (easy to reposition)
and then I still have two more connections available on the manifold...
these are for when I need to bunker Match or Deleted User

 

[BartW]

we have been considering all different kinds of bladder positioning, see earlyer posts in this thread,
but finally decided on how it is right now,
the hoses to the tanks have a big loop of extra length, so we can alway's choose to do it differently,
its all a bit a trial right now,
coming season we want to test and find the most hasslefree method to use these tanks.

 

[BartW]

Good idea in principle - in fact, some long range vessels are built like that from the ground up, i.e. with double hull and integral tanks.
But I'm not sure I would go that far in a retrofitting like the one BartW did on BA - if nothing else, because I'd rather be able to inspect the bilge bottom without dismantling half boat...

yes, and also for the extra work involved, after all we will only use this ones or twice in a season,
so for this project the motto was, keep it simple and keep it cheap,

 

[BartW]

How is BA now handling fully loaden. Does it notably affect speed and/or consumption? Do you still see the loadline?

I guess the bladders have been made on specs. Were they expensive?

What fuel pipe make did you install in the end?

we didn't use the boat so far, but I guess it will be similar difference like with a half empty and a full fuel boat,
yes you note the difference in cruising speed / rpm, boat becomes slower. so yes more fuel cons /nm at same speed.

bladders are a standard product from Nauta, actually made in Belgium, I was able to buy direct, but normally the distributor is in France. price for one tank is around 800 euro IIRC, I can look it up
they have different sizes; 300l, 470l, 600l, 750l.... (also smaller)
this model is specially made for diesel, and has tags for fixing on deck fe
it feels like the skin of a Rib Tube, but more solid

all hoses is black rubber ID25mm, the type that is used for filling fuel in a car.
I bough the hose and the pump from a supplier of all accesories for fuel stations

 

[BartW]

I should be in Montenegro from August onwards, jfm and I'll do you a cheaper price than Bart On this subject, why aren't there fuel barges in the Med buying fuel from low duty countries like Gib and Montenegro and selling it in international waters just off high duty countries to pleasure boaters?

the fuel station here in porto Montenegro has a book, where they write down all delivery's of fuel,
last year I saw in this book a delivery the day before mine, of no less than 400.000L to one yacht,
supply's of over 100.000l were very frequent.

the fuel station itself has a tank of 800.000l, and in high season, fuel trucks are driving on and off from "Croatia !" supplying fuel to PM

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm not aware of such rule, are you sure it's valid EU-wide?
.

We need jfm's considered input on this but I would have thought its just like any goods you buy outside the EU. You should declare them on entry into the EU and pay the appropriate duty and VAT? Of course it is very difficult for the authorities to check this

 

[MapisM]

Yep, I don't disagree on the principle as such, but I believe that this specific case falls in the category of tolerated minor exceptions, so to speak - though I have no clue about whether they are formally disciplined or not.

Frinstance, whenever I go to my home in Lake Como, I drive along the border with CH, and I often take the opportunity to refill the car - unless I am in a hurry, 'cause neither the price difference nor the tank capacity are big enough to change my life.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that this is recognised/accepted at the custom controls, because sometimes I've even been asked the reason for my trip abroad, and I plainly told them that I just went to fill up the car tank.
They never argued with that, though they once asked me if I had any extra jerry cans. I supposed they might have objected to that, if I would have had any.

My previous post was mostly based on this experience, considering that aside from the quantities involved, the logic is pretty much comparable.
And coming to think of it, even if the bigger car is nowhere near the capacity of the smaller boat, probably the overall quantities involved in "car refilling tourism" (which is very popular among folks living near the border), are higher than those involved with pleasure boats...

 

[BartW]

I guess the bladders have been made on specs. Were they expensive?

I have e-mailed you the Nauta brochure and the price list,
I actually paid 690 euro for the 470l model.

 

[BartW]

We need jfm's considered input on this but I would have thought its just like any goods you buy outside the EU. You should declare them on entry into the EU and pay the appropriate duty and VAT? Of course it is very difficult for the authorities to check this

well, when I enter europe with the boat in Cavtat, nobody cares that I have 5000 nor 7000 liters of duty free fuel onboard
The fuel is simple white diesel, not red, not blue, but exactly the same type like duty paid fuel.
I think these rules are practically un controll-able or at leats not all the variations on the topic,
Jfm migh know the fine details.

 

[scubaman]

Yep, I don't disagree on the principle as such, but I believe that this specific case falls in the category of tolerated minor exceptions, so to speak - though I have no clue about whether they are formally disciplined or not.

Frinstance, whenever I go to my home in Lake Como, I drive along the border with CH, and I often take the opportunity to refill the car - unless I am in a hurry, 'cause neither the price difference nor the tank capacity are big enough to change my life.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that this is recognised/accepted at the custom controls, because sometimes I've even been asked the reason for my trip abroad, and I plainly told them that I just went to fill up the car tank.
They never argued with that, though they once asked me if I had any extra jerry cans. I supposed they might have objected to that, if I would have had any.

My previous post was mostly based on this experience, considering that aside from the quantities involved, the logic is pretty much comparable.
And coming to think of it, even if the bigger car is nowhere near the capacity of the smaller boat, probably the overall quantities involved in "car refilling tourism" (which is very popular among folks living near the border), are higher than those involved with pleasure boats...

P, as you probably recall, when bringing my boat back from the sea, we filled the tanks to the brim on the russian side. I made a passing remark of my plan to do so when chatting with the Finnish officials and received no objections. It also seems to be a common practice as there are two fuel barges along the canal leading back to Finland, serving solely boats making the trip to/from the the sea.

Based on this experience I too would be inclined to think that duty/tax is not an issue in this context.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

well, when I enter europe with the boat in Cavtat, nobody cares that I have 5000 nor 7000 liters of duty free fuel onboard
The fuel is simple white diesel, not red, not blue, but exactly the same type like duty paid fuel.
I think these rules are practically un controll-able or at leats not all the variations on the topic,
Jfm migh know the fine details.

Woo hoo then your fuel barge business is up and running

 

[MapisM]

P, as you probably recall...

'Course I do, that trip is among my most memorable boating experiences, many thanks again K! :encouragement:
IIRC, those folks at Finnish customs did check the colour of the fuel in your thanks, so obviously they were more concerned about the usage of commercial fuel in pleasure boats.
The only thing I didn't know/remember is that you also asked them about refilling in Russia before re-entering Finland, but I'm not surprised to hear what they told you.

 

[scubaman]

'Course I do, that trip is among my most memorable boating experiences, many thanks again K! :encouragement:
IIRC, those folks at Finnish customs did check the colour of the fuel in your thanks, so obviously they were more concerned about the usage of commercial fuel in pleasure boats.
The only thing I didn't know/remember is that you also asked them about refilling in Russia before re-entering Finland, but I'm not surprised to hear what they told you.

P, don't mention it, the pleasure was all mine. And it has to be said that the feeling was totally reciprocated on our visit to Carloforte.

Re. Finnish customs; strictly speaking I didn't actually ask them about it, but refferred to my plan to refill in a conversation and took the lack of objections as a sign of silent acceptance.

 

[MapisM]

Aha, understood.
I did mention that I don't know if there's any formal regulation behind these exceptions to the general principle.
Probably there isn't any (at least, not EU-wide), and it's just a case of common sense applied when interpreting the rules...

 

[BartW]

I've just got info that the price today for detax fuel here in PM is 0.38 euro/lit,
this will take ages before I've earned back the cost of these bladder tanks :ambivalence:

 

[Pinnacle]

I've just got info that the price today for detax fuel here in PM is 0.38 euro/lit,
this will take ages before I've earned back the cost of these bladder tanks :ambivalence:

At those prices, there will be no more pootling for BA! :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I've just got info that the price today for detax fuel here in PM is 0.38 euro/lit,
this will take ages before I've earned back the cost of these bladder tanks :ambivalence:

Oooh I can't wait to get there. Save some for me. Pedal to the metal for me from then on

 

[BartW]

At those prices, there will be no more pootling for BA! :encouragement:

the new engines will suffer