Useless Brokers.

[DAKA]

Its alright, we can tell you are not a Broker as you are dont understand the relationship that exists.

Remember this thread is all about a Broker from a buyers point of view.

You do need to re read my posts and try to understand the difference between the sellers relationship to the Broker where it would indeed be underhanded to avoid the Broker compared with a buyer who doesnt have a relationship with the Broker at all, the buyer is just the Brokers 'Mark'.

A Broker is working for the seller and himself only .

From a buyers point of view all he does is introduce further risk and uncertainty much of which can be avoided along with the Broker.

You are new to the forum or you would have understood my post along with previous posts of mine where I have been in favour of creating a relationship between the Broker and the 'Mark' but other Brokers on this forum have been against such ideas and prefer to carry on in the past.

From a buyers point of view he can be made to feel like a 'Mark' by some Brokers, there to be ripped off.

The few honourable ones need to take note of buyers concerns and address them in order to increase boat sales.
Unfortunately many buyers are having the same experience that I have suffered and the Brokers, even the honourable ones are just too arrogant to listen to the customers concerns.

 

[gjgm]

Sounds like you assume everything stems from your own experience DAKA, given the language,"Mark", that you choose to use.
It isnt correct that the broker has no relationship with the buyer, as without a buyer, he isnt going to get paid. He doesnt get renumerated by the buyer, true, but thats a slightly narrow view of a purchase.
Neither is it true the broker adds nothing to the transaction but risk and uncertainty.
Some maybe new to the forum, but many of us are familiar with your personal view on this. Its just your personal view, only, though.

 

[DAKA]

I think you will find technically I have made correct statements.

Where the Broker may give an illusion of acting as an impartial 'go between' he isn't at all.

His duty is entirely to the seller and he does not owe the buyer any duty what so ever.

As such he adds nothing from the buyers point of view other than extra risk and uncertainty.

 

[gjgm]

I'm not saying he does or doesnt owe any duty, but it is highly likely he can oil the cogs of the transaction, if he is any good at his job. The idea that he adds no value to the transaction is incorrect, in my opinion. If that was the case, there would be no brokers, surely.

 

[DAKA]

I'm not saying he does or doesnt owe any duty, but it is highly likely he can oil the cogs of the transaction, if he is any good at his job. The idea that he adds no value to the transaction is incorrect, in my opinion. If that was the case, there would be no brokers, surely.

From a buyers point of view apart from helping a buyer to ignore dangers I cant see any value but accept I could be blinkered after my experiences.

That isnt to say that a Broker couldnt offer an exceptional service if he wanted, its just at the moment there isnt a body that can distinguish itself adequately from the poor ones that put boat purchasers at risk.

There, I have made a special effort not to use 'Mark' .

 

[jfm]

I think you will find technically I have made correct statements.
...

he does not owe the buyer any duty what so ever.

That's not correct Daka. The broker is the seller's agent, so for example any representation the broker makes is in law enforceable agianst the seller. In addition, while the broker might not owe the buyer anything under contract he does under tort

Problem here is that we each see a handful of transactions ourselves yet there are 100s of thousands of broker sales. It's dangerous to extrapolate a bad experience, and unfair to those brokers that are good. You had a bad experience or two. I have sold two boats thru brokers (Jonathan Browne at Powertosail, and James Barke at Essex Boatyards, and both did a fantastic job. They found me buyers at strong prices which I couldn't do myself, and handled all the detail and sorted the money out without fault. I've no regrets about paying their commissions, which were well into 5 figure territory. I wouldn't extrapolate that to say all brokers are good, but there are plenty of good ones out there

I have no idea who Mark is. Must have missed that episode

 

[DAKA]

Alright, I'll shut up !*

I wouldn't expect someone of your upright standing to recognise the term 'Mark'




* I have been receiving pms and I would like to post them anonymously , I am currently seeking clarification that they were intended for the forum and not just for my benefit but they clarify the situation from a Brokers point of view.

 

[Tranona]

I bought one boat from a Broker, I needed a Barrister to sort the mess out.
I was lucky, I jotted his lies onto the sales agreement , barley a scruffy sentence, turned out to be a really smart move !

Somewhat surprised in your usual tirade against "brokers" that you are still quoting this example.

I thought it had been established that you did not "buy it" from a broker, but from a trader acting on his own account. He was not therefore a "broker" although he may have acted in that capacity in other transactions.

As you know, one needs to be very clear about the role an individual plays in a transaction as the role determines which area of law covers the relationship.

This observation does not in any way mean that all brokers are perfect, just that if you are trying to give examples of (bad) their behaviour then they should accurately reflect the point being made.

 

[DAKA]

Somewhat surprised in your usual tirade against "brokers" that you are still quoting this example.

I thought it had been established that you did not "buy it" from a broker, but from a trader acting on his own account. He was not therefore a "broker" although he may have acted in that capacity in other transactions.

As you know, one needs to be very clear about the role an individual plays in a transaction as the role determines which area of law covers the relationship.

This observation does not in any way mean that all brokers are perfect, just that if you are trying to give examples of (bad) their behaviour then they should accurately reflect the point being made.

I have decided following a friendly pm and jfm's wisdom to back off from this thread.

If you force me to reply to your post it will add significant shoddy practice by a Broker which goes way beyond this topic on this current thread and any other I have so far seen posted on this forum, brokers really don't want this one to be aired in public !

 

[Thepipdoc]

I've been looking at this thread with interset and It seems to me you're debating, perhaps even arguing, semantics.
I still think that as a buyer, ther guy I'm dealing with is as good as useless.
I'm being ignored completely and if I were the vendor I'd be furious.

 

[DAKA]

Has anyone had honest, open and helpful advice from a Broker taking commission on a boat up to £100 000 ?

Any Brokers reading this that want to educate us to why this massive segment of the market doesnt get looked after ?


(FEEL FREE TO SEND A PM TO ME OR ANOTHER TRUSTED SOURCE FOR COPY/PASTE ANONYMOUSLY)

I have received this reply by PM which goes a long way to explaining the problems from a Brokers point of view, (full source details supplied).

I think you've asked a good question regarding the sub £100k market.



The sub £100k market are generally passionate owners who can often keep their boats nearby to where they live. They now have free access to extremely good advertising through Apollo Duck etc. and they are normally smart enough to handle buyers and gauge whether to do a viewing or not.

These boats are often with brokers as well as privately advertised. But 9 out of 10 potential buyers will call the owner not the broker for many of the reasons you've posted.

Therefore big chunks of the sub £100k market are very active with boats selling but these boats are by passing the brokers and there is nothing they can do about it other than make public statements about the risks of buying privately - but - buying through a broker is a private sale and the risk is largely the same !

Many of the boats that are with brokers are "long stay patients", over priced and/or with known problems. The owners have often failed to sell privately, will not see reason and expect a broker to achieve a near asking price. The brokers get pissed off with these boats/sellers and unfortunately it sometimes shows.

The plus £100k market is better as generally the sellers just want an agent to deal with everything and often the boats are in the Med or too far away to do viewings.

There are too many brokers operating with £20k - £100k boats - often with multi broker arrangements and with parallel owner's private adverts. I believe, even without a recession, a great many of these brokers will close in the coming years.

Which makes me question why such a very tiny number of houses are sold privately ????
[/QUOTE]

 

[Thepipdoc]

Which makes me question why such a very tiny number of houses are sold privately ????[/COLOR]
[/I]

Estate agents commision =1.5% (ish)
Boat brokers commision = 5-8%

Seems quite logical why etatate agents are used when selling houses.

 

[uncle albert]

Brokers in general

I'm new to all this after a lot of research and many miles travelled looking at lots of different boats both privately and at marinas we recently boat a boat for the first time, there is a lot to choose from out there but we eventually settled on a nice little shetland which we found on the internet down at Allington Marina in Kent, we live so far away that we didnt want to travel twice so we asked for an accurate description and decided to go for it, when we arrived, they had the boat ready to go, it was just as they described it so we paid on a card and towed it away, They rang the same day to make sure we made it home ok, that was my first actuall transaction with a broker, but i cant praise these guys enough, nothing was too much trouble, we needed a spare key and engine manual and they had them sent to us free, it sounds like a few more brokers could learn a thing or two!

I have received this reply by PM which goes a long way to explaining the problems from a Brokers point of view, (full source details supplied).

I think you've asked a good question regarding the sub £100k market.



The sub £100k market are generally passionate owners who can often keep their boats nearby to where they live. They now have free access to extremely good advertising through Apollo Duck etc. and they are normally smart enough to handle buyers and gauge whether to do a viewing or not.

These boats are often with brokers as well as privately advertised. But 9 out of 10 potential buyers will call the owner not the broker for many of the reasons you've posted.

Therefore big chunks of the sub £100k market are very active with boats selling but these boats are by passing the brokers and there is nothing they can do about it other than make public statements about the risks of buying privately - but - buying through a broker is a private sale and the risk is largely the same !

Many of the boats that are with brokers are "long stay patients", over priced and/or with known problems. The owners have often failed to sell privately, will not see reason and expect a broker to achieve a near asking price. The brokers get pissed off with these boats/sellers and unfortunately it sometimes shows.

The plus £100k market is better as generally the sellers just want an agent to deal with everything and often the boats are in the Med or too far away to do viewings.

There are too many brokers operating with £20k - £100k boats - often with multi broker arrangements and with parallel owner's private adverts. I believe, even without a recession, a great many of these brokers will close in the coming years.

Which makes me question why such a very tiny number of houses are sold privately ????

[/QUOTE]

 

[kcrane]

I've been looking at this thread with interset and It seems to me you're debating, perhaps even arguing, semantics.

I think you'll find we're discussing semantics, not arguing or debating them. It's easy for you to make light, but these distinctions matter.

 

[Norfolk Boy]

That's not correct Daka. The broker is the seller's agent, so for example any representation the broker makes is in law enforceable agianst the seller. In addition, while the broker might not owe the buyer anything under contract he does under tort

Problem here is that we each see a handful of transactions ourselves yet there are 100s of thousands of broker sales. It's dangerous to extrapolate a bad experience, and unfair to those brokers that are good. You had a bad experience or two. I have sold two boats thru brokers (Jonathan Browne at Powertosail, and James Barke at Essex Boatyards, and both did a fantastic job. They found me buyers at strong prices which I couldn't do myself, and handled all the detail and sorted the money out without fault. I've no regrets about paying their commissions, which were well into 5 figure territory. I wouldn't extrapolate that to say all brokers are good, but there are plenty of good ones out there

I have no idea who Mark is. Must have missed that episode

I sold my Sunseeker Manhattan 64 through Power To Sail. The boat was in Italy and sold to a French buyer. Using a broker meant I did not have to master two languages or accompany prospective purchasers to to Med. I also did not have to study the French, Italian and UK tax regulations! Other boats I have sold in the UK, again through brokers, have resulted in sales with no hassle on my part. Brokers are an expense but they have saved me (and perhaps earned me) far more in the long run.