Used boat market - strange times

[Koeketiene]

Yeah, that's exactly what it says in the preface to the Colregs. Let me know how you get on driving at 80 in a 30 zone on the wrong side of the road. Probably blind, lame and spineless.

There is a difference between not following rules blindly and applying good judgement and wilfully disobeying rules regardless of the consequences.
Or, at least, there is to me.

 

[Concerto]

It seems strange to read of 120 new boats sold for $44.5 million at the recent Turkish Boat Show in Instabul. That is certainly a lot of new expensive boats.

120 boats sold for nearly $44.5 million - Marine Industry News

So there must be sufficient confidence that people are still prepared to buy boats, either personally or for charter, despite Covid19.

 

[Frogmogman]

Most - but not all.

A UK broker friend told me that between 1/3 and 1/4 UK boats find a new owner abroad.
That's a significant portion of potential customers (not what I would call 'minimal').

This has been very much driven by the weakness of the Pound Sterling, which makes UK boats very attractive to foreign buyers.

Stick 20% back on top of that purchase price, and that advantage evaporates. So, if between a quarter and a third of potential buyers lose interest overnight on 1st Jan, it will depress the market and cause sale prices to drop.

 

[CLB]

Most - but not all.

A UK broker friend told me that between 1/3 and 1/4 UK boats find a new owner abroad.
That's a significant portion of potential customers (not what I would call 'minimal').

I call fake news on that. There is no way that one in three used boats sold in the UK go overseas.

 

[NotBirdseye]

I call fake news on that. There is no way that one in three used boats sold in the UK go overseas.

Yeah... I mean only 1 in 50 ever leave the marina...

 

[Denek]

I would say look around anyway. There is no telling what will happen over the next couple of years. I doubt people will feel completely confident booking foreign holidays next summer either so if you sit it out in hope of prices dropping you might miss a couple of seasons in a bigger boat - and then if the prices don't drop, what then? Best to keep looking and see if anything catches your eye without rushing to buy. Once you've bought, a small amount extra on the purchase price will be insignificant over your years of ownership. On the other hand it's always easy to tell someone else to spend their hard-earned!

I'd be interested to know what you end up getting. We've just started on the same trajectory as you - trailer sailer for now while the kids are small but with the aim of upsizing once they get bigger and we can afford it! What sort of boat are you hoping to get for your £20k?

I am not sure that people are holding back on booking foreign holidays we rent our house in Cyprus and it’s virtually fully booked for next season already. Normally we only get repeat bookings this side of Christmas And have to wait till the new year for the majority of bookings. A lot of next years are people who could not get there this year though.

Home | mysite

 

[suffolklass]

I am not sure that people are holding back on booking foreign holidays we rent our house in Cyprus and it’s virtually fully booked for next season already. Normally we only get repeat bookings this side of Christmas And have to wait till the new year for the majority of bookings. A lot of next years are people who could not get there this year though.

Home | mysite

Fair enough, I deter to your knowledge. But I think that if there are people who have bought a boat because of covid, they're unlikely to be selling again as soon as next year - because they obviously feel that they want to have holidays in the UK at least. So if the OP is hoping there'll be a lot of boats back on the market at low prices he might have to wait a while, if it happens at all. I don't think I'd be sitting it out at this stage!

 

[TernVI]

First post here, hello all! Returning to sailing after a break of around 35 years. Looking to buy something around 40' to live on full time.
Now please tell me, am I being naive? I have spotted a few suitable boats in the last couple of weeks but, as others have said, they sold or were listed "pending sale" within a few days. All these boats were being sold by brokers within England. I was under the impression that we have a lockdown? I guess it may be that they were all bought by liveabords so they consider the same rules apply as when moving house but I doubt it. Perhaps they were all bought unseen, again I doubt it.
So, is it just me that is abiding by the guidance, or, rather, the law and avoiding non-essential travel? Also, by way of comparison, car showrooms are closed, surely there is even less justification for boat brokers to be trading?

I would think from my experience that plenty of sales take more than a week between 'buyer views boat' and 'sold subject to survey'.
Personally I viewed about 5 boats in a week, then put in an offer on one of them. It takes a day for the broker to get an answer out of the vendor. Then maybe there is some negotiation. The broker may not immediately flag the boat as 'off the market', it's more like buying a house than buying a car.
Most of a broker's work is not face to face, no reason for their offices to be shut, except they will mostly be working from home.

 

[Concerto]

I have just advised someone who wanted to buy a Fulmar. He gave me the agent's links and I viewed the photos and gave my comments. As he could not travel to see the boat due to Covid, a friend who lived locally to the boat went and viewed giving him a video tour. He made an offer that was accepted subject to survey. The survey found only a few small proplems and he completes within the next week. He still has not seen the boat in person. As soon as practicable he will be moving her from a Solent yard to the Medway. So, yes boats are selling during lockdown.

 

[flaming]

I call fake news on that. There is no way that one in three used boats sold in the UK go overseas.

Since about 2012 practically every boat that I race against that's come up for sale has gone to Europe. Not one has rejoined the fleet in new ownership. In addition 4 J88s (by my reckoning) have left the Solent fleet and gone abroad. I think 1 changed hands but stayed in the Solent. A whole bunch of J109s have gone abroad. 2 of our former fleet (including our former steed) have gone to Scotland, but most have gone to Europe.

My dad's boat was sold by Jonic in 2016 to Holland.

I definitely believe the 1/3 going abroad, at least in the part of the market that isn't the very cheap, very old boats.

 

[Denek]

Fair enough, I deter to your knowledge. But I think that if there are people who have bought a boat because of covid, they're unlikely to be selling again as soon as next year - because they obviously feel that they want to have holidays in the UK at least. So if the OP is hoping there'll be a lot of boats back on the market at low prices he might have to wait a while, if it happens at all. I don't think I'd be sitting it out at this stage!

Agreed.

 

[TernVI]

Since about 2012 practically every boat that I race against that's come up for sale has gone to Europe. ..

Does that not suggest an odd tendency for new boats to be sailed in the Solent, while there is a better market for established designs elsewhere?
Why are the european buyers not buying new race boats?
Why would they buy a used Uk boat instead?

The race boat market must be different from the cruising boat market?
Are we talking about boats with OD fleets in euroland?

 

[flaming]

Does that not suggest an odd tendency for new boats to be sailed in the Solent, while there is a better market for established designs elsewhere?
Why are the european buyers not buying new race boats?
Why would they buy a used Uk boat instead?

The race boat market must be different from the cruising boat market?
Are we talking about boats with OD fleets in euroland?

No, we're talking about cruiser racers in the main. And the big issue is that they are not really being replaced. Fleet numbers here are well down on 10 years ago...

And my Dad's boat was a cruising boat...

 

[TernVI]

No, we're talking about cruiser racers in the main. And the big issue is that they are not really being replaced. Fleet numbers here are well down on 10 years ago...

And my Dad's boat was a cruising boat...

Cruiser racing has got a lot of problems, most of which pre-date the Brexit referendum, let alone the events of this year.
It's very expensive, and the racing is often not very good.
People want different things. Some people want short races, some just like w/l.
The handicap system is stressed by disparate boats and courses which suit some boats better.
Fewer people in Engalnd can afford to play, compared with 15 years ago.
Some fleets have lost critical mass.

We have enough problems with shrinking fleets, having lost this year, some older people may not come back.
It's an issue in some dinghy clubs too, a lot of older people. Some of whom might have moved on into cruiser racing in previous generations?

 

[dom]

Cruiser racing has got a lot of problems, most of which pre-date the Brexit referendum, let alone the events of this year.
It's very expensive, and the racing is often not very good.
People want different things. Some people want short races, some just like w/l.
The handicap system is stressed by disparate boats and courses which suit some boats better.
Fewer people in Engalnd can afford to play, compared with 15 years ago.
Some fleets have lost critical mass.

We have enough problems with shrinking fleets, having lost this year, some older people may not come back.
It's an issue in some dinghy clubs too, a lot of older people. Some of whom might have moved on into cruiser racing in previous generations?

I agree with this, little to do with Brexit. France has a much deeper racing scene than the UK and there is a vast market for slightly older racing boats.

Re cruiser racing, personally speaking it just doesn't do it for me. A race is ultimately so much more fun where a win on the water is a win, full stop.

Also with boat design having moved on so much with proper planing being standard now, who wants to clump around with their sofa, kitchen, computer, lawnmower and whatnot down below?

 

[flaming]

Cruiser racing has got a lot of problems, most of which pre-date the Brexit referendum, let alone the events of this year.
It's very expensive, and the racing is often not very good.
People want different things. Some people want short races, some just like w/l.
The handicap system is stressed by disparate boats and courses which suit some boats better.
Fewer people in Engalnd can afford to play, compared with 15 years ago.
Some fleets have lost critical mass.

We have enough problems with shrinking fleets, having lost this year, some older people may not come back.
It's an issue in some dinghy clubs too, a lot of older people. Some of whom might have moved on into cruiser racing in previous generations?

If you look at the threads I've started over in racing land on this subject you'll see that I agree entirely.

Just pointing out that pretty much every boat that comes up for sale is going abroad, and thus I can well believe the 1/3 of total figure.

 

[TernVI]

I agree with this, little to do with Brexit. France has a much deeper racing scene than the UK and there is a vast market for slightly older racing boats.

Re cruiser racing, personally speaking it just doesn't do it for me. A race is ultimately so much more fun where a win on the water is a win, full stop.

Also with boat design having moved on so much with proper planing being standard now, who wants to clump around with their sofa, kitchen, computer, lawnmower and whatnot down below?

Now that drysuits are well developed, who wants to plod around with a couple of tonnes of lead?

 

[flaming]

Now that drysuits are well developed, who wants to plod around with a couple of tonnes of lead?

It's not really about that to be honest, for me racing larger boats is about the challenge and buzz you get out of building a team.

I have raced dinghies, but it just doesn't really do it for me.

 

[dom]

Now that drysuits are well developed, who wants to plod around with a couple of tonnes of lead?

I'd find it hard to argue with that since dinghy sailing has and remains my personal favourite. In which vein modern small racers are evolving to sail more and more like dinghies, which makes them so much more fun IMHO!

Re drysuits, I dunno, they're getting better and better for sure but with the need to wear thermal layers in winter I still find them a bit clumpy, not so much helming but more as crew. To some extent because if one gets warm one can always unzip a wetsuit a bit, and even splash some water on which is not really an option with a drysuit.
Midwinter though it's a drysuit every day ?

Apols for drift, miles off topic now ?

 

[TernVI]

I'd find it hard to argue with that since dinghy sailing has and remains my personal favourite. In which vein modern small racers are evolving to sail more and more like dinghies, which makes them so much more fun IMHO!
....

As I see it, the 'yachts' which race like overgrown dinghies have made racing second rate for any conventional cruiser-racer which races against them.
Maybe yacht racing will do similar to dinghy racing, where after a boom in fast asy classes, lots of people went back to relatively slow 'classic' types like the Solo, because the competitive one design racing is pretty good?
Not to mention, you don't have to look too far to find a few reasonably respectable Solo or Laser people to race against at your own level.
I understand that even some Lasers are bought used in the UK and go abroad for the beach holiday market.