Urgent Advice needed Wooden Boat

[Guest]

I'm in the process of buying a wooden boat. I have just had the survey done. The survey has found a number of problems:

The keel was recently replaced and was glassed over. This has not bonded and the surveyor recommends removal and inspection for rot / worms. There are also several soft spots on the topsides, extra ballast is needed and there is a small area of rot on the deck. These are my main area of concern.

My initial reaction was Oh no definately don't buy but I am not sure if this is because I like most people have been conditioned with prejudice against wooden boats. On the whole it is in good condition the Oak frames are in good order and the 2" x 2" teak planks are mainly good with one bulging 1/2".

The boat is a 62' Sparkman and Stephens design built by Abeking and Rasmussen in 1970 and represents a lot of boat for a very good price. There are one or two other areas of rot although they don't sound significant.

I want the boat but I am unsure. I really know nothing about wooden boats and I would appreciate as many opinions and advise as you are willing to give. Am I being too wary or would I be well advised to leave it alone?

To make things more difficult I have not seen it yet as it is in Florida.

All comments are welcome.

Paul

 

[tony_brighton]

Tried the Classic Boat Forum? - they probably have more appropriate advice.

 

[miket]

My first question would be "why was the keel replaced?" 30 years old is nothing, and the builder is reputable.

If you don't know much about wooden boats, ....... beware. Labour costs over here are high, and wooden boat skills hard to find. Then trying to tie them down to actually do the job........!!!! Virtually impossible.

It sounds a lovely boat, from a great designer and an excellent yard. Just think long and hard. I'll bet that for every problem the surveyor has found there will at least one he hasn't.

Build in a significant contingency amount of money to your calculations.

 

[Mirelle]

This sopunds very curious

S&S are top notch designers and A&R are a first rate yard. A 62 ft boat with this pedigree should be a classic and worth a small fortune - certainly not the sort of boat that would normally be botched up with fibreglass, or for sale cheap.

And it is frankly inconceivable, unless the boat has been badly botched, that an S&S /A&R boat would need
extra ballast; these designers and builders just would not make that kind of mistake.

One the other hand, 1970 is a very late date for such a boat to have been built. Something is not adding up.

Florida has a bad reputation as a wooden boats' graveyard amongst US wooden boat owners.

I think you need expert advice from the USA, and the place to start looking for it, if ybw.com will pardon my recommending a specialist magazine outside their stable, is the US publication "Wooden Boat" and the forum on their website. Try a search on "google".

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: This sopunds very curious

Paul,

As this is your first post no jokes about sounds like a load of rot and do you have any fear of drowning.
Does Dona Lili know what you have in mind, I think I would keep the Hallberg Rassey sounds far more sensible to me.
Plenty of dreams in boat yards rotting away, shame about concrete boats anybody want one?.
See Ya
Trevor

 

[Guest]

Talk to the surveyor

Greetings from a fellow wooden boat owner.

Going to repeat the age-old advice which certainly worked for me - call up the surveyor and have an informal, "off-the-record" chat. Ask whether he/she would buy in your shoes. This normally works a treat in helping you to gauge how to weigh up the survey findings.

Was she taken right out of the water for the survey? Absolutely essential for wooden, if not all, boats. Also buying sight unseen is a nightmare. Given the amount of cash involved, both for purchase and future maintenance, is a trip to Florida really out of the question? At least you'd probably get a fairly decent holiday out of it if the purchase fell through.

It sounds like none of the soft spots are on the hull but I think the advice of the people above is very sound. Could you find out more about the history of the boat to try and get answers to the questions they raise? Are there any experts/extant builders you could talk to?

I had the difficult problem that the boat I wanted was pretty much unique and so walking away would have been very tricky indeed. People did advise me not to touch a wooden boat on principle, but the people replying to this thread appear to be speaking from a position of knowledge, not just giving a knee-jerk reaction.

Maintenance is the key to looking after a wooden boat. My surveyor went as far as to say that the annual lift-out, paint and varnish etc. was the most important bit of work she needed, because it was essential to preserve her condition. Can you get a feel for how she's been looked after - professionally maintained by a yard, or a knowledgeable owner, or not really much attention paid to her?

Personally I would say that a chat with the surveyor is the key to this. Good luck.

"El manana es nuestro, companero..."<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by The_Fruitbat on Thu Mar 28 13:31:07 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[wrr]

A replacement ballast keel sounds very odd. Cast iron keels without anodes can last 80 years+ and lead should last for ever. As for glass sheathing, this has some place on new epoxy-coated decks but apart from that is a sure way to recycle a wooden boat into compost.

Was the surveyor a wooden boat expert and enthusiast? You can tell instantly from the response when you mention that the boat is wooden, the experts revel in taking on a proper (sorry folks) boat and the rest put up the fees in order to avoid the job. Before you consider any renovations look at the cost of teak and be aware that because of shipping in containers, only short (relative to this boat) planks may be available. Local rot in planks may be curable with the insertion of small pieces (dutchmen, sorry friends in the Netherlands) but local rot in decks often leads to a major restoration project.

The WoodenBoat Forum (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi) is an excellent suggestion. Someone may even know this boat and offer some history and provenance.

 

[Guest]

>As for glass sheathing, this has some place on new epoxy-coated decks but apart from that is a sure way to recycle a wooden boat into compost

I have to admit that I thought this sounded a bit dodgy too...

"El manana es nuestro, companero..."

 

[Gordonmc]

I had a similar dilemma less than a year ago with the surveyor (a good one) throwing up a number of problems. Replacement of the bilge-plates had already been accounted for. Some localised softening had not.
In the end I aggregated the cost of putting things right, doubled it and lopped it off the asking price, which was accepted.
You have a special problem of distance. I had several repeat visits and was able to chat to the surveyor as he was working on the boat hanging on the lift. I learned a lot.
I share concern expressed elsewhere about the keel replacement. I can only think there was a problem with the keel bolt threads (?) but even so, glassing-in seems a bit of a botch, even if it was only done to seal the keel joint.
In summary, don't be put off by wood. Its far friendlier medium than glass to work with and doesn't deserve the prejudice. Higher maintenance, yes, but repairs are generally more localised and easier to diagnose.
Should you buy?
Too many open ended questions. How amenable is the vendor to giving up info, especially about the keel? Would he accept an offer subject to further inspection, ie under the sheathing?
Might be worth a try before you write it off.

 

[Guest]

Without doubt such a remarkable boat will have been yard maintained and if you can find out where then that's your best source of information. She may well have had a professional skipper so that might be another route to investigate.

Couple of thoughts...

If there are genuine problems with the boat then they belong to the current owner until you sign the cheque and then they become yours.

On the other hand, boats like that only come along a couple of times in your life and despite the care that you'll have to lavish on her she'll have fathoms more soul than your HR will ever have.

All the best

KCA

 

[ccscott49]

I´ve sent you a personal message. Colin.

 

[mtb]

Re: be realistic

Look unless you have tons of money and I do mean tons of money forget it .
If it had a new keel then glassed over !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would take it for granted that you will not only need to drop the keel but also do major repairs in that region as well.
I bet it has problems that meant the only way they could keep it afloat until some mug could be found was to cheat ,the timber would never take or hold the resin because even if you could dry it out for a month it still would have moister present, then there's the movement of the wood !!!!!!!!!!
Most hulls go around the water line and then there's the effect of the weather over there.
There is an ex 75 ft mfv at Glouster docks it needs work even if you were capable and able ( due to time and money) it would take years to do .
Just the dry dock in and out was £500. plus £48. a day .
I looked over it and if the costs re moving it around the coast were not so expensive I would have got it and then been happily busy working on it for the next few years . That said most work on large boats need more than one person to do the job so again more costs
So what sort of budget do you have to do the job it would have to be in the region of £20 k. I bet that would be eaten up in no time at all .
I love wooden boats because they have such character compared to modern things, so don't misunderstand I'm all for bringing a classic back into life its just the reality of years of hard work and suffering it takes to do the job
Mick


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug

 

[Guest]

Wow, the response has been overwhelming and extremely useful, thank you all for your advice. Following it I have discovered some of the history. I called the surveyor.

The boat was originally a Motor Sailer, the current owner had her converted and increased the height of the mast by 10 feet, added a bowsprit, etc. Therefore the keel was re-designed and 7500 lbs of external ballast added. She currently trims head down and need some more internal ballast aft.
He recommends removing the glass to keep an eye on the condition of the keel, very important in the tropics, not that I count Bucklers Hard as the Tropics!

I ask the Million $ question, would he buy it. He said if he was in the market for a boat like this he would as there is nothing significantly wrong with it.

I am talking to a local yard tomorrow to get a rough idea of the cost for the work to be done, useful negotiating point.

I must say I feel much better now than I did earlier, thanks in total to the searching questions you all asked me. Please keep the advice coming.

The next thing I need is a crew!

Thanks

Paul

 

[Mirelle]

Sounds better!

A lot of things start to fall into place now. These big motorsailers have tended to do less well in the secondhand market than the pure sailing boats, and some of them have fallen on hard times. This is a bit unfair, as they are often lovely boats. There are some aspects (the fibreglass, the rig and the ballasting) that sound as if she has been botched up somewhere along the line, but given the inherent quality of any S&S/A&R boat (very high indeed!) it sounds as if she should be worth sorting out - she is "almost new" at 32 years old, for such a high quality boat.

Some more advice would be:-

1. Get in contact with Sparkman and Stephens right away, and get one of their staff members to take a look at the boat with you. Remember that they will have all the original drawings and calculations on file, and they should know her early history anyway.

2. I would ask S&S for advice on which yard to use, but if you can safely get her up the Intracoastal I would head for New England rather that entrusting her to a yard in Florida. There are several established wooden boat specialist yards in New England that will know what they are doing with her and will cost you less money, for a better job, than a yard which just thinks it can do it. I have learned this after a lifetime ( a very happy lifetime!) of wooden boats - go to the experts and it is miles cheaper in the end.

3. Deck may be teak over ply - in this case, budget for a new deck in the not too distant future, espescially if she has been long in the tropics.

4. You do not say what the planking material is; if iroko it should be fine, if it is teak you are laughing, if it is mahogany or douglas fir be a little careful.

Welcome to proper boats!

 

[chippie]

Where is Bucklers Hard? Is it near the Viagra factory?

 

[wrr]

The explanation for the new keel makes sense of what seemed very dubious at first reading. The removal of enough of the glass to inspect the timber keel above the ballast keel should be performed prior to purchase, as it may have been an attempt to cover/repair something significant. It should all come off anyway and, eventually, probably would do so spontaneously! Glass has a role on new epoxy/wood composite structures but I have seen many old and not-so-old wooden boats reduced from repairable to wreck by attempts to glass over wood that has reached its working moisture content and has some initial rot. The new trimming ballast should be properly supported off her timbers and restrained, after sea trials.
As with all pre-loved wooden boats, you will have to spend some (significant) money but well-built wooden boats, given a modicum of care, can last for generations.
The others suggestions are sound: east coat is a good place for getting work done and the climate is a little kinder is she is to be hauled out for some time. It would be important to establish her provenance and the original designers and builders may be able to give advice and insight into proposed repairs.
Enjoy her and may you have deep pockets and fair seas!