Upturned Yacht - Biscay

[dk]

So what happened to the yacht - was she towed in?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

>Yes but someone had a fractured bone. Would you have continued under those circumstances when help was available?

Yes I would have kept gong because we did the RYA first aid course and one of many things they teach is dealing with fractures, but I would get help as quikly as posible to fix it.

If you were taught about fractures, you will have been taught that any fracture is potentially serious with a high likelihood of internal bleeding, shock, and internal injuries up to and including punctured internal organs. The correct response to a suspected fracture is a Mayday, even if you can apply appropriate first aid - in this case, first aid means FIRST aid, not final treatment. By all means keep going, but only in a direction towards help..

 

[Kukri]

Tout au moins, je viens d’apprendre un nouveau mot en Français:

“Les quatre navigateurs, dont un victime d’une fracture, ont été hélitreuillés puis évacués vers l’hôpital de Brest tandis que le voilier, démâté, était provisoirement laissé à la dérive.”

Isn’t “hélitreuillé” just lovely! Must write that Useful Verb into the multi language yottin dictionary.

 

[Blue Sunray]

If you were taught about fractures, you will have been taught that any fracture is potentially serious with a high likelihood of internal bleeding, shock, and internal injuries up to and including punctured internal organs. The correct response to a suspected fracture is a Mayday, even if you can apply appropriate first aid - in this case, first aid means FIRST aid, not final treatment. By all means keep going, but only in a direction towards help..

+1.

 

[greeny]

Common sense. Take the help while its available. Weather could deteriorate, medical conditon could deteriorate. Shock is a killer to caualties in these circumstances. They absolutely did the right thing.

 

[weustace]

With the vhf I’ve found I can pick up Holland, But everyone else seems to have us on ignore.

Even with my masthead antenna at only ~8m asl I hear CROSS Jobourg and occasionally Guernsey CG on a routine basis when out round the Needles. This is probably tropospheric ducting of some sort, and is one of the things the person who insisted to me a while ago that power was irrelevant in VHF marine communications (because they were "line of sight") had possibly failed to take into account. See e.g. https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/7444/1/2002SimCYDPhD.pdf

 

[KellysEye]

>Awesome, a one day course makes one an expert. Thats certainly not the RYA 1st aid course I've been on, must book the right one in future.

RYA first aaid course topics covered

Medical shock – recognition and management
Accessing medical advice on VHF
The recovery position
Helicopter evacuation
Resuscitation techniques
Dealing with wounds, burns and fractures

 

[dom]

>Awesome, a one day course makes one an expert. Thats certainly not the RYA 1st aid course I've been on, must book the right one in future.

RYA first aaid course topics covered

Medical shock – recognition and management
Accessing medical advice on VHF
The recovery position
Helicopter evacuation
Resuscitation techniques
Dealing with wounds, burns and fractures

And you clearly took absolutely nothing in. There is no way the RYA would ever advocate dealing with a possibly serious fracture and its associated complications including shock, internal hemorrhaging, and so on, while a helo ride to a fully equipped French hospital was fluttering overhead.

Hence no. 4 on your list!!

Which is exactly what the crew did, and is exactly what any other good skipper should do in the future.

Are aware that the French Coastguard makes a point of telling mariners that "it is always with them" in a metaphorical sense and advises them to call sooner rather than later? Even to chat something through, rather than waiting until a dire life and death run is required.

 

[Balbas]

>Awesome, a one day course makes one an expert. Thats certainly not the RYA 1st aid course I've been on, must book the right one in future.

RYA first aaid course topics covered

Medical shock – recognition and management
Accessing medical advice on VHF
The recovery position
Helicopter evacuation
Resuscitation techniques
Dealing with wounds, burns and fractures

Yes, 'dealing with' through the provision of 1st aid - which is, in the case of a fracture, a case of stabilising until 'proper' medical attention can be sought - which should happen at the first opportunity.

You may learn more on an MFAS / MCAS course, but certainly on the RYA 1st aid courses I've done, serious injury 1st aid has been about saving life, preventing further injury and getting the casualty dealt with by professionals asap.

If I - as a skipper - dealt with a casualty and then didn't take an opportunity to get them off when I could, how would I justify that to myself / them / their family / a court if they subsequently died or were permanently injured?

Did they *all* need to get off the yacht? Dunno, that's a different question (which can't be answered without knowing the full circumstances), but calling the CG to get the casualty off was absolutely the right call IMO.

 

[capnsensible]

The old Ship Captains Medical Course was far more fun for stitching. injecting and inserting stuff. And dealing with the Grim Reaper.

 

[photodog]

The idea that i would stick with an insured boat in the middle of biscay with all the rigging and sails hanging over the side in frankly atrocious conditions with an injured member of crew and a helicopter hanging over head waiting to take everyone off... is bonkers. The risks going forward even if we get rid of the casualty are substantial.

Let the insurers deal with it.

Odds are it was a delivery trip anyways...

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The old Ship Captains Medical Course was far more fun for stitching. injecting and inserting stuff. And dealing with the Grim Reaper.

Yup packing the orifices of cadavers was good fun.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And you clearly took absolutely nothing in. There is no way the RYA would ever advocate dealing with a possibly serious fracture and its associated complications including shock, internal hemorrhaging, and so on, while a helo ride to a fully equipped French hospital was fluttering overhead.

I did a proper three-day first aid at work course for that part of my life which involves working outdoors with other people's children. What we learned was that the first aider's job is to try to keep people alive until properly qualified help arrives. That and removing ticks. There is absolutely no way that I would deal with a fracture by ... what? Ignoring it? Trying to reduce it myself? Giving the casualty a nice, warm cup of tea?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The old Ship Captains Medical Course was far more fun for stitching. injecting and inserting stuff. And dealing with the Grim Reaper.

Kurafid, the British Antarctic Survey first aid handbook is great fun, and covers all of the above. Dealing with corpses is a bit easier in a climate that is always well below zero, though. Knowing when you have a corpse on your hands is the tricky bit.

 

[stiknstring]

It looks the right way up If the rudder was fine and the engine worked I would have kept going.

Bring a skipper demands a sure grip on judgement in times of emergency. Particularly when a crew member is ill or injured, that judgement has to be focussed squarely on the best outcome available for the injured crew member. KellysEye perhaps needs to be careful about expressing potentially damaging "advice" from the armchair of ignorance. I am shocked by the lack of judgement here. No first aid course is going to help KellsEye here but maybe a RYA yachtmaster course might at least highten awareness.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Knowing when you have a corpse on your hands is the tricky bit.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

:encouragement: Problems in Antarctica include the old adage that you're not dead until you're warm and dead. Warming an inanimate body to check whether warming it up brings it back to life is challenging, to say the least. We were told that barring obviously unsurvivable traumatic injury, we were to continue attempts to resuscitate until we were certain they were dead - and then carry on. The latter instruction probably had more to do with the psychology of the survivors than any real hope of success.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I have seen similar comments on my walking forum concerning two parties lost if fog calling out the Mountain Rescue. We met the MRT going out as we descended Gable and it was indeed fairly wet and very misty.

To those who criticised the lost ones for calling out MRT, I put the question "Would you really prefer they died of hypothermia to prove a point ? "

If its all under control yes of course motor back with mast down, but masts generally dont fall down when its under control. If its not under control seek assistance if at all possible.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We were told that barring obviously unsurvivable traumatic injury, we were to continue attempts to resuscitate until we were certain they were dead - and then carry on. The latter instruction probably had more to do with the psychology of the survivors than any real hope of success.

Yes, same in the course I did. When do you give up CPR? Never, as long as you're physically capable. And yes, I think it's as much (or more) to avoid the "Perhaps I could have saved her if I hadn't stopped" feelings afterwards as anything else. After all, if you need CPR and you are not already in a hospital your chances are minute and even if you are already in a hospital they only improve to "slim".

 

[Blue Sunray]

>Awesome, a one day course makes one an expert. Thats certainly not the RYA 1st aid course I've been on, must book the right one in future.

RYA first aaid course topics covered

Medical shock – recognition and management
Accessing medical advice on VHF
The recovery position
Helicopter evacuation
Resuscitation techniques
Dealing with wounds, burns and fractures

You appear to be living proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, or perhaps in your case minimal knowledge is lethal.