Unlimited Greek Transit Log British Flag VAT paid

[Chris_Robb]

UPDATE and Some Good News!

Legal advice from a prominent Greek Lawyer this morning: Dont worry - the document is already changing.

The From Leros Marinas - I had a call this morning:

Customs have just told us the following.
1. there will be an UNLIMITED Transit Log issued.
2. When you leave Greece you should stamp out as usual and KEEP the UTL. On return, you just stamp in as usual and present your existing UTL. This UTL will be yours for life.

The said please get you TL as soon as possible as they dont have the staff to issue 500 or more in June!
Some boatyards ar ebeing very helpful and will do the application, most already hold Insurance and Registration detail, but they do not hold your VAT proof.

You will therefore need to copy and email the VAT Proof to your boatyard with a solemn declaration in Greek that you have not has a refund. - More on this later.

So this is EXCELLENT news.

Isn't Greek bureaucracy amazing! its almost like Darwin's ideas on the survival and development of species!!!!

 

[ITH]

UPDATE and Some Good News!

Legal advice from a prominent Greek Lawyer this morning: Dont worry - the document is already changing.

The From Leros Marinas - I had a call this morning:

Customs have just told us the following.
1. there will be an UNLIMITED Transit Log issued.
2. When you leave Greece you should stamp out as usual and KEEP the UTL. On return, you just stamp in as usual and present your existing UTL. This UTL will be yours for life.

The said please get you TL as soon as possible as they dont have the staff to issue 500 or more in June!
Some boatyards ar ebeing very helpful and will do the application, most already hold Insurance and Registration detail, but they do not hold your VAT proof.

You will therefore need to copy and email the VAT Proof to your boatyard with a solemn declaration in Greek that you have not has a refund. - More on this later.

So this is EXCELLENT news.

Isn't Greek bureaucracy amazing! its almost like Darwin's ideas on the survival and development of species!!!!

Chris, just heard basically the same from the ever-helpful Irene Dinou at Moor & Dock in Leros - where I am currently berthed. My only question is which VAT proof is needed?

I am the third owner of 'Carpe Diem', which has never left the EU since she was built in Finland in 1987. I bought her ("VAT paid") from her second owner, in 2007. I have a copy of his sales receipt from the first owner which shows that 14% MWSt (German VAT) was paid in 1988. Is that sufficient VAT proof?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Chris, just heard basically the same from the ever-helpful Irene Dinou at Moor & Dock in Leros - where I am currently berthed. My only question is which VAT proof is needed?

I am the third owner of 'Carpe Diem', which has never left the EU since she was built in Finland in 1987. I bought her ("VAT paid") from her second owner, in 2007. I have a copy of his sales receipt from the first owner which shows that 14% MWSt (German VAT) was paid in 1988. Is that sufficient VAT proof?

Hi, thats your vat proof. You will need to email a copy of that unless your only copy in on board.
In addition you will need to do the letter solemn declaration. Irene will help you.

Irene is great, she rang me to update me as soon as she had the call from her customs office.

The bit about getting it done sooner is important as there are a lot of British in leros.

Thank god leros has a good customs office. I will use it in preference to Kos, who have a certain reputation.

 

[ITH]

Hi, thats your vat proof. You will need to email a copy of that unless your only copy in on board.
In addition you will need to do the letter solemn declaration. Irene will help you.

Irene is great, she rang me to update me as soon as she had the call from her customs office.

The bit about getting it done sooner is important as there are a lot of British in leros.

Thank god leros has a good customs office. I will use it in preference to Kos, who have a certain reputation.

.
As ever Chris, thanks for the advice - now acted upon. I have had nothing but prompt, helpful info from the Leros customs/CG services. As for Irene/Moor & Dock, just a shame that a CA member set such a hare running at the Agmar takeover - but illegitimi non carborundum!

 

[Chris_Robb]

.
As ever Chris, thanks for the advice - now acted upon. I have had nothing but prompt, helpful info from the Leros customs/CG services. As for Irene/Moor & Dock, just a shame that a CA member set such a hare running at the Agmar takeover - but illegitimi non carborundum!

Much as the RYA has done about VAT!

 

[Mistroma]

Much as the RYA has done about VAT!

If you avoid the issue of returning to the UK, there's still the problem of proving VAT payment for boats already in the EU. The RYA say that documents issued by HMRC will no longer be valid in EU.

The documentation (such as a T2L, customs opinion letter or other supporting documentation) issued by the UK before the end of the transition period will not be valid in the EU after the end of the transition period. Therefore, for a boat lying in the EU at the end of the transition period, the person concerned needs to submit a new request to obtain a proof of Union status to one of the Customs authorities in the EU. Regarding the VAT invoice, if there is a proof that the VAT has been paid in the EU before the end of the transition period, then this proof may be used in order to demonstrate the Union status of the craft. In case this payment can be verified on the invoice, then the invoice itself may be used in order to demonstrate the Union status of the craft.

It did not exactly come as a surprise as I assumed that would probably happen. I applied for a T2L on the basis that it couldn't hurt and also that it added to the documentation I could show to any authorities. I assumed that even if all the documents I produced were no longer valid they would prove my VAT status at the end of 2020. I could then obtain some valid EU document declaring that the boat was still considered to be VAT paid in the EU (on the basis of current location and prior status). I'm fortunate to have the original invoice marked VAT paid plus other documents, including a T2L (belt & braces).

I imagine that some people will struggle to provide the proof required.

 

[Mistroma]

UPDATE and Some Good News!

Legal advice from a prominent Greek Lawyer this morning: Dont worry - the document is already changing.

The From Leros Marinas - I had a call this morning:

Customs have just told us the following.
1. there will be an UNLIMITED Transit Log issued.
2. When you leave Greece you should stamp out as usual and KEEP the UTL. On return, you just stamp in as usual and present your existing UTL. This UTL will be yours for life.

The said please get you TL as soon as possible as they dont have the staff to issue 500 or more in June!
Some boatyards ar ebeing very helpful and will do the application, most already hold Insurance and Registration detail, but they do not hold your VAT proof.

You will therefore need to copy and email the VAT Proof to your boatyard with a solemn declaration in Greek that you have not has a refund. - More on this later.

So this is EXCELLENT news.

Isn't Greek bureaucracy amazing! its almost like Darwin's ideas on the survival and development of species!!!!

Chris, was the reference to June related to a deadline? I seem to remember something being mentioned about requiring VAT status before the end of June. However, I can't remember where I read it.

 

[Chris_Robb]

If you avoid the issue of returning to the UK, there's still the problem of proving VAT payment for boats already in the EU. The RYA say that documents issued by HMRC will no longer be valid in EU.

The documentation (such as a T2L, customs opinion letter or other supporting documentation) issued by the UK before the end of the transition period will not be valid in the EU after the end of the transition period. Therefore, for a boat lying in the EU at the end of the transition period, the person concerned needs to submit a new request to obtain a proof of Union status to one of the Customs authorities in the EU. Regarding the VAT invoice, if there is a proof that the VAT has been paid in the EU before the end of the transition period, then this proof may be used in order to demonstrate the Union status of the craft. In case this payment can be verified on the invoice, then the invoice itself may be used in order to demonstrate the Union status of the craft.

It did not exactly come as a surprise as I assumed that would probably happen. I applied for a T2L on the basis that it couldn't hurt and also that it added to the documentation I could show to any authorities. I assumed that even if all the documents I produced were no longer valid they would prove my VAT status at the end of 2020. I could then obtain some valid EU document declaring that the boat was still considered to be VAT paid in the EU (on the basis of current location and prior status). I'm fortunate to have the original invoice marked VAT paid plus other documents, including a T2L (belt & braces).

I imagine that some people will struggle to provide the proof required.

As usual - the RYA is not actually right. HMRC document will no longer be valid for events after TP. The T2L although in my view a pretty valueless bit of paper, will certainly go towards proving your VAT status along side an Invoice and it pre-existed TP and is only being used as collateral evidence. In Greece you will have to sign a solemn oath as well that you have not had a refund. All happening now in Greece - several Unlimited Transit Logs issued already - that the Greeks acceptance of Vat status. Once again just dont listen to the RYA.
The problem with all the other EU Countries, they do not have a process like the TL to allow you to prove your Vat status - Its a Canary in a cage I suppose. When and how will you know that the Portuguese will/have accepted your Vat status - I suspect only when it comes up and bights your bum! So the bloody TL actually has been good for us in Greece

 

[Mistroma]

As usual - the RYA is not actually right. HMRC document will no longer be valid for events after TP. The T2L although in my view a pretty valueless bit of paper, will certainly go towards proving your VAT status along side an Invoice and it pre-existed TP and is only being used as collateral evidence. In Greece you will have to sign a solemn oath as well that you have not had a refund. All happening now in Greece - several Unlimited Transit Logs issued already - that the Greeks acceptance of Vat status. Once again just dont listen to the RYA.
The problem with all the other EU Countries, they do not have a process like the TL to allow you to prove your Vat status - Its a Canary in a cage I suppose. When and how will you know that the Portuguese will/have accepted your Vat status - I suspect only when it comes up and bights your bum! So the bloody TL actually has been good for us in Greece

Thanks. Yes I thought that even though the Transit Log would be a nuisance it would at least get some updated proof of EU VAT status. I'd assumed it would only be a problem when selling somewhere in the EU. I have never been asked to provide proof of VAT status anywhere in the EU and thought it unlikely they'd start now. However, a Transit Log does have a benefit in that regard.

I'd assumed that RYA actually meant "no longer valid for events after TP" because they were only used to help determine status up until end of 2020. I couldn't see EU authorities accepting them for transactions after 2020 and "no longer valid" seemed acceptable shorthand.

I agree about T2L but it only cost me the price of a stamp and was never going to hurt. The project manager in me said "cost of VAT problems is high", "chance of something happening is moderate", "cost of a T2L was nil" "usefulness of T2L is low". Still a no-brainer even though it might have minimal value.

 

[Mistroma]

for statutory declaration (ypeythini dilosi)
https://www.dimosaspropyrgou.gr/media/entypa/ypeythyni_dilosi.pdf
it is only necessary to have someone to write it in greek and then take it to KEP for signature witnessing (appointment required). No solicitor is required.

The document we are discussing is not law it is instructions.

Thanks for the link. I downloaded the document and made it into an editable PDF with tool tips in English for each field. Have you have completed one already? It would be helpful if you could comment on my interpretation of the content for each field if you have had experience of the form.



Do you know what I'd put in the first field? I'm assuming it relates to whatever department requires me to produce a declaration
I don't have an ID number and assume I would either enter my passport number (Irish or UK) or apply for a buff card (assuming it has a number).
I'm assuming that the Residence address would have to be in Greece (Boatyard?) or are they looking for my home address in UK (I'd write Town name, UK).

I'm imagining that the fields will all be OK in normal English text but the declaration itself must be in Greek. I can make up something standard with spaces for boatname, reg. number and whatever else is required. This would make it easy for an English speaker to complete the form and I'd be happy to publish it if I can get this section translated. I'm not 100% certain what is required. Presumably something along the lines of I state that Vessel such and such was VAT paid prior to 2021 and has bee located in Greece since mm/dd/yy until the present day.

I'd appreciate any suggestions you can give to point me in the right direction.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Is there a reason to apply for a transit log now as there's no movement of boats .
Next port in June please ?

 

[ITH]

Thanks for the link. I downloaded the document and made it into an editable PDF with tool tips in English for each field. Have you have completed one already? It would be helpful if you could comment on my interpretation of the content for each field if you have had experience of the form.

View attachment 110945

Do you know what I'd put in the first field? I'm assuming it relates to whatever department requires me to produce a declaration
I don't have an ID number and assume I would either enter my passport number (Irish or UK) or apply for a buff card (assuming it has a number).
I'm assuming that the Residence address would have to be in Greece (Boatyard?) or are they looking for my home address in UK (I'd write Town name, UK).

I'm imagining that the fields will all be OK in normal English text but the declaration itself must be in Greek. I can make up something standard with spaces for boatname, reg. number and whatever else is required. This would make it easy for an English speaker to complete the form and I'd be happy to publish it if I can get this section translated. I'm not 100% certain what is required. Presumably something along the lines of I state that Vessel such and such was VAT paid prior to 2021 and has bee located in Greece since mm/dd/yy until the present day.

I'd appreciate any suggestions you can give to point me in the right direction.

I have just completed and returned the "Solemn Declaration" form - to Irene Dinou at the Moor & Dock boatyard in Leros. She is arranging for the form, plus proof of VAT, plus my T2L document to be presented to Customs & Excise in Leros. I completed it in English not Greek, including the declaration, and so far (?) she has not asked for any translation. I'll post here if that raises any subsequent issues.

The version of the form which I downloaded differs slightly from yours, not in substance, but it has more English translation:
In the first field I put "Greek Customs & Excise"
On the address section, it asks for ID or Passport No, and the address asked for is "Residence" ie home address. As with all Greek forms the various sub-sections of the address are impossible to complete in the boxes denoted. I simply over-wrote my home address details, ignoring the boxes.

The English translation of the final Greek sentence: "On my own responsibility and being fully aware of the sanction stipulated by article 22 par.6 of Greek Law 1599/1986, I hereby declare that:"

My version of the declaration:
"I, Ian Houston am the owner of Nauticat35 sailing yacht Carpe Diem. The VAT paid in Germany in 1988 (copy attached) has not been refunded by the UK or by any other EU Member State. The supporting documents provided are true copies of the original documents."

As I said I will post here if I am required by Customs & Excise to modify/translate any of the submission.

 

[JFowler]

I’ve just completed my Declaration with the help of our yard on Leros.
Box 1: Customs of Leros
ID Card: Passport No
Address: UK Address

Leros Customs have asked that we apply early as they will be overwhelmed if everyone applies in June!

 

[Mistroma]

I have just completed and returned the "Solemn Declaration" form - to Irene Dinou at the Moor & Dock boatyard in Leros. She is arranging for the form, plus proof of VAT, plus my T2L document to be presented to Customs & Excise in Leros. I completed it in English not Greek, including the declaration, and so far (?) she has not asked for any translation. I'll post here if that raises any subsequent issues.

The version of the form which I downloaded differs slightly from yours, not in substance, but it has more English translation:
In the first field I put "Greek Customs & Excise"
On the address section, it asks for ID or Passport No, and the address asked for is "Residence" ie home address. As with all Greek forms the various sub-sections of the address are impossible to complete in the boxes denoted. I simply over-wrote my home address details, ignoring the boxes.

The English translation of the final Greek sentence: "On my own responsibility and being fully aware of the sanction stipulated by article 22 par.6 of Greek Law 1599/1986, I hereby declare that:"

My version of the declaration:
"I, Ian Houston am the owner of Nauticat35 sailing yacht Carpe Diem. The VAT paid in Germany in 1988 (copy attached) has not been refunded by the UK or by any other EU Member State. The supporting documents provided are true copies of the original documents."

As I said I will post here if I am required by Customs & Excise to modify/translate any of the submission.

Many thanks. I don't need any Greek translation with gaps for fields with boat details if you have written everything in English and that is accepted. I'll just put in standard text in English with <<type boat name here>> etc. The tooltips provide translation for the remaining fields but an English version would remove the need to do anything. It would be useful to find out how you get on and I can still publish the editable PDF if it seems to be relevant and useful.

 

[Mistroma]

I’ve just completed my Declaration with the help of our yard on Leros.
Box 1: Customs of Leros
ID Card: Passport No
Address: UK Address

Leros Customs have asked that we apply early as they will be overwhelmed if everyone applies in June!

Did you had to got to a KEP with the form or are the yard doing something on your behalf? It would be useful to know, thanks.

It's good that a Greek translation does not seem to be required.

 

[ITH]

O

Did you had to got to a KEP with the form or are the yard doing something on your behalf? It would be useful to know, thanks.

It's good that a Greek translation does not seem to be required.

Irene Dinou at Moor & Dock is doing the leg work - as she is for all the owners.

 

[ASW11]

Wonder if there is any info re older UK flagged boats which were previously "deemed vat paid" by virtue of having been in the EU on December 31st 1992?

 

[JFowler]

The Declaration is a self certification form. You don’t need it witnessed by KEP or anyone else.

 

[Cariadco]

Many thanks. I don't need any Greek translation with gaps for fields with boat details if you have written everything in English and that is accepted. I'll just put in standard text in English with <<type boat name here>> etc. The tooltips provide translation for the remaining fields but an English version would remove the need to do anything. It would be useful to find out how you get on and I can still publish the editable PDF if it seems to be relevant and useful.

Can you convert the PDF to a Word document please?

 

[Mistroma]

Can you convert the PDF to a Word document please?

I uploaded an initial version to my website here.

I'll have a look at the Word document later as I'm going to go out for some exercise and then need to collect some items. All the relevant parts of the PDF are editable and you can just type in your own details, dates etc. The Word document would probably be an image of the document and you'd need to add text boxes to allow data entry. It's much easier with the PDF. I should be able to convert the document to text instead of an image but the layout may change due to Greek fonts etc.

Have a look at the PDF first.