Unknown boat type - help needed

[doug748]

What sort of thing do I have to be certain about? You have exactly the same information as me, and nothing in my advice (or any others') is unreasonable based on what is available.

Guess you have never renovated either type of boat, but you might like to consider the difference in volume and range of gear that goes up according to the size of boat. Some simple differences. If the inboard is past it the 22 can use an outboard as the bracket in the video suggests. The mast of the 22 can be raised manually (even if those idiots on the video cocked it up) whereas the bigger boat will need a crane. Sail area is probably 50% greater, as will be the cost of replacements. Need I go on?

The consistent advice from a number of people is the same. Avoid this type of project, particularly as he is a novice, and if he does want to buy a boat spend the money on one that works.

Of course he does not have to take that advice, and one can see why he might find it attractive. Equally I can see why the yard owner is anxious to get a new owner responsible for it rather than having to dispose of it himself.

10 years ago it might have been a good deal to take on such a boat, particularly if experienced but things have changed somewhat.

The second remark was directed at the OP, that is why it was separated by six blank lines.

As in - If you take this on you have to be "very certain of your ground":

*You have to be aware of all the things that have been said - most ring true
*It's a steady sailor and will never be worth much
*The sails have to be usable and the engine worth a punt
*A sensible offer may be in the couple of hundred range any more is difficult to justify even though the trailer is potentially worth a lot.
*You have to be really sure you want a project for it's own sake, not because you fancy the idea or just because it is on the doorstep. You have to have some sort of practical ability and be willing.

Of course to some people it is obviously better to get a super boat for £2,000 rather than £200 but only people that have the option. If the OP has the option then fine, he may not. Watch the video.


The increased cost in putting things right on a 26ft boat over a 22ft boat is mostly trivial.

So just admit that you did not read or understand my opening gambit:

"I can't disagree much with anything that has been said."

You are in danger of making yourself look like a right old tator, again

 

[RupertW]

Agree with the above that you should walk away.

I gave away a fully functional clean 24 footer this year a few weeks after my last sail on it with new inboard engine, new sail covers, new battery, new autohelm, rewired domestics, newly repainted deck and generally looked after because it was cheaper to do that than pay another years marina fees whilst waiting for a definite offer.

Go onto eBay and Appollo duck, visit a nice small boat and make a silly offer to take it away, sail it and love it

 

[Tranona]

The second remark was directed at the OP, that is why it was separated by six blank lines.

As in - If you take this on you have to be "very certain of your ground":

*You have to be aware of all the things that have been said - most ring true
*It's a steady sailor and will never be worth much
*The sails have to be usable and the engine worth a punt
*A sensible offer may be in the couple of hundred range any more is difficult to justify even though the trailer is potentially worth a lot.
*You have to be really sure you want a project for it's own sake, not because you fancy the idea or just because it is on the doorstep. You have to have some sort of practical ability and be willing.

Of course to some people it is obviously better to get a super boat for £2,000 rather than £200 but only people that have the option. If the OP has the option then fine, he may not. Watch the video.


The increased cost in putting things right on a 26ft boat over a 22ft boat is mostly trivial.

So just admit that you did not read or understand my opening gambit:

"I can't disagree much with anything that has been said."

You are in danger of making yourself look like a right old tator, again

Is separating text with 6 lines to mean that the two comments are meant for different audiences a new convention you have just made up? If you want to do that you have to make it clear, perhaps by addressing the comments direct to the original poster (who seems to have disappeared)

Anyway your comment that the differences in cost and effort between renovating a simple 22' boat and a 26' are "mostly trivial" just shows how out of touch you are with reality as the examples I gave in answer to your request clearly show. Note Seajeat says the same.

 

[Seajet]

And for me and Tranona to agree on something is quite remarkable, there must be something to it !

I do implore the OP not to buy a boat of any type at this stage, get some experience crewing on other people's boats at clubs and / or by asking on the PBO & Scuttlebutt forums here, as I mentioned lots of people are keen on having someone for company to chat with and maybe take a line etc, nowadays all it takes is strolling into a club bar and saying something like ' I'm new to to this game, any pointers on sailing please ? ' and you should have a few instant offers to sail.

Do NOT buy a romantic project boat at this stage even if the yard owner offers you his trophy wife and an old Rolls Royce...

 

[DoubleEnder]

Yup they are right. Go sailing a bit on other people’s boats, it won’t be hard to get a ride and if you can be a reliably available crew you will get plenty of sailing on a range of different craft. And with a range of skippers he he.
The boat in the photo is worthless. You won’t get to sail it and it will cost you money even so.
People here in Kent are quite literally giving away better boats, useable boats. Free of charge. No cost. Nothing, nada.
So when the time comes to buy, you can get a small or mid size cruiser that’s not perfect, but perfectly useable, for very little.
There’s a Facebook page called “Yachts and Yachty Bits for Sale”. Keep an eye on that as well as Apollo Duck and Boats and Outboards.

 

[doug748]

And for me and Tranona to agree on something is quite remarkable, there must be something to it !

QUOTE]

Nobody has given warm praise to the project and the OP has already rejected it.

Posts 2, 4, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 21 reflect the only logical advice - There is not enough information to know one way or the other but buying the boat looks a poor proposition.

Anything else suggests second sight or depends on the type of damming criticism of boat design, from some contributors, which is not noticeably welcomed when it is incoming, directed towards their own boats.

 

[Tranona]

"There is a big difference between a simple 22' boat and the 26' he is looking at"

Is there? I am sure you won't mind telling us what the big difference is.


.

Just to reinforce this point a few more facts might help you understand.

The displacement of the 26 is 60% greater than the 22, the sail area is 50% greater and the surface area (simply measured by L*B) is 30% greater.

This gives you a pretty good idea about the increased size and cost of any work required on this boat compared with the 22 - and they are hardly "trivial". A look at the interiors of the two boats will give a good idea of how much additional work is required to renovate the interior - I counted 9 bunk cushions in a 26 compared with 4 in a 22 for example. Of course not everything will need replacing, but most major things that do will likely be anywhere between 30-50% more expensive.

There are a number of 26s in usable condition, some with relatively new engines with asking prices of between £3-4k and I know of one with a rather dodgy old Yanmar, but otherwise in reasonable condition that could be had for well under £1k. On that basis a mildewed boat crammed in the back of a yard with rotting woodwork in the cockpit and looks like it has not been near water for years is indeed worthless as a boat.

 

[doug748]

The difference is not of great importance because the 22 itself is as heavy as a Folkboat.

If the buyer puts his foot through that rotten locker top the cost or effort to replace it is the same on either boat- by any measure that matters.
Just as when a sailmaker is asked to make a sprayhood the costs are not linear, there is the same labour invested in a small one as a large one.

The same for mending the single pot engine
The same for getting hold of used sails
The same for painting
The same for lugging either boat around the yard
The same for getting an old outboard to push either boat
The same for making a new sail cover
The same for rigging

Any minimal extra effort is generally worth it with small boats for the lavish extra accommodation.

But try as you might you will not get me to suggest I think the plan is a great idea.

I do agree that it would be nice if the OP reports back with maybe more info about his spending ideas and plans.

 

[jwilson]

I don't "damn" the Macwester 26 - fifty years ago in the Bristol Channel I'd have been delighted to have one, though the Centaur was a "big expensive boat" at the time and rather better (much better).

Macwester 26 hulls are tough, interiors a lot bigger than many smaller boats available at similar money (or free). In the particular case of the Bristol Channel, the fairly horrible windward performance is not that important as 5 knot+ tides take anything to windward quite effectively at times. In other places that may not apply, though sailed properly a Mac 26 will get to windward, just slower overall than others. You just have to sail free-er and make more tacks. Trying to point high = leeway and much worse progress.

The green in the photo will clean up easily. What matters is the engine, rig, sails etc. - you absolutely don't want to be spending much at all on these.

 

[Tam Lin]

And for me and Tranona to agree on something is quite remarkable, there must be something to it !

I do implore the OP not to buy a boat of any type at this stage, get some experience crewing on other people's boats at clubs and / or by asking on the PBO & Scuttlebutt forums here, as I mentioned lots of people are keen on having someone for company to chat with and maybe take a line etc, nowadays all it takes is strolling into a club bar and saying something like ' I'm new to to this game, any pointers on sailing please ? ' and you should have a few instant offers to sail.

Do NOT buy a romantic project boat at this stage even if the yard owner offers you his trophy wife and an old Rolls Royce...

Oh I don't know!

On second thoughts I will just agree with all the others. It is likely to be a money pit and you will get better value elsewhere. If you don't believe me I can send you the breakdown of costs for my Centaur which wasn't supposed to be a project boat when I bought her, that will frighten you!

 

[Wansworth]

Fitting out an old Macwester will give hours of harmless fun,enable skills to be learn and friends to make!

 

[Tranona]

The difference is not of great importance because the 22 itself is as heavy as a Folkboat.

If the buyer puts his foot through that rotten locker top the cost or effort to replace it is the same on either boat- by any measure that matters.
Just as when a sailmaker is asked to make a sprayhood the costs are not linear, there is the same labour invested in a small one as a large one.

The same for mending the single pot engine
The same for getting hold of used sails
The same for painting
The same for lugging either boat around the yard
The same for getting an old outboard to push either boat
The same for making a new sail cover
The same for rigging

Any minimal extra effort is generally worth it with small boats for the lavish extra accommodation.

But try as you might you will not get me to suggest I think the plan is a great idea.

I do agree that it would be nice if the OP reports back with maybe more info about his spending ideas and plans.

Thank you for confirming that you do not live in the same world as the rest of us.

Why on earth are you bringing a folkboat into this?

The comparison (determined by you) is between a Macwester 22 and a Macwester 26. The displacement of a 22 is 1830kgs and the 36 is 3050kgs.

The 22 has GRP cockpit locker lids (see the video) whereas the 26 has (rotten) wood. £80 worth of ply to start.

How do you know the 26 has a single cylinder engine? - many had twins. If it is in the usual state found in abandoned 40 year old boat it is probably unrepairable and therefore irrelevant how many cylinders it has.

The sail area of the 26 is 50% larger and if you were lucky enough to get used ones bigger sails will almost certainly cost more, assuming the same condition. New sails prices are almost linear to area, assuming the same cloth.

The surface area of the 26 is at least 30% greater which means 30% more paint and 30% more time in labour for preparation and application.

Crane hire in all yards I have ever been in is charged according to length of boat. In the yard I use the 22 (which just falls into the lower rate) would cost £102 a lift and the 26 would be £143 (both include VAT)

While an outboard would move a boat weighing close to 4 tons in cruising condition at low speed it is not really practical as a permanent engine. Anyway a 9.9hp engine you would need would cost (new) about half of what it would cost to buy a complete functioning 26 with a newish Beta 14.

A sailcover is priced according to length of boom. The boom of a 26 is longer than a 22 so would inevitably cost more.

You must be joking about rigging.

For 22 4mm stay with talurit ends £28 jib sheet 8m braid on braid 10mm £16

For 26 5mm stay with talurit ends £46 jib sheet 10m braid on braid 12mm £27

All current Jimmy Green prices. Rigging for Macwester 26 all over 50% more expensive, consistent with 50% greater sail area and displacement.

Welcome to the real factual world rather than some whimsical world where such differences are considered TRIVIAL.

Indeed would be nice if the OP did return with his costs - although if he does the same sort of research as above he will soon realise the impracticality of the project.

 

[doug748]

..

Indeed would be nice if the OP did return with his costs - although if he does the same sort of research as above he will soon realise the impracticality of the project.

There is essentially little difference, apart from condition in fettling up two small boats of a similar type
The others have pointed out that the Macwester could be worth having but it depends on a lot of things that we do not know - about the boat and the prospective owner. I agree with them

I put in the video for a bit of fun, it does not seem to have cheered you up. How was I to know it would trigger some sort of Mr Nasty tribute act? Mainly though, it's there to show the OP that cheap can be cheerful. Also as a little reminder to fat cats like you that some people do run 200 quid boats and they don't spend a fortune doing it. They laugh now and again. Though it must be wearing thin when told by blokes like you that their boats are a waste of time.

Spend 5 grand is great advice if you have got it. Next one will be to buy a new Bavaria I guess. Sadly, you are so far down your little nick all we can see is your cap.

 

[Seajet]

A good Meccano set would give the OP something worthwhile to do; the Macwester, even when brand new, wouldn't.

In our first season on my boat, alright it's a good performer but the same applies to any normal cruiser, the general rule was ' how many times do we sail rings around a Macwester ? '

Occasionally I was worried when I saw one doing well, but a look at the transom invariably showed the engine was on.

A friend - a forumite here - recently gave his Leisure 17, a VERY handy boat to sail with a lot to offer, free to a charity for deprived youngsters - and I take my hat off to him.

The first cruiser I ever sailed was a Robert Tucker ' designed ' Mystic 21' plywood twin ( not bilge ) keeler; it was an achingly pretty boat, but we were counting ourselves lucky if doing over 3 knots, and on every occasion we sailed with our chum we ' missed the tide ' and ended up beating up and down the Solent with the same marks appearing, then couldn't get to the half tide moorings, wait until midnight with a tin of beans and a faux Swiss Army ' spork ' then get home in the early hours to face the wrath of my mum - no mobiles in those days.

The Macwester range gives one the opportunity to revisit those times, but if anything slower, and after a humungous cash input - don't just walk away, run !

So many good boats going cheap at the moment; my instinct says grab a good one ( ie a going concern not a project ) while you can* - no situation stays the same, who knows what next, sailing cruisers may have a reboost or there might be a ' scrap old grp ' scheme, one thing for sure, things will be different in a few years time ...

* after a learning period on other people's boats, this is much more critical advice than ' marry the right girl '

 

[Wansworth]

You have got it in for Macwester!!,

 

[DownWest]

You have got it in for Macwester!!,

Well, yes. But, given the choice out there, some reason..

 

[Tranona]

There is essentially little difference, apart from condition in fettling up two small boats of a similar type
The others have pointed out that the Macwester could be worth having but it depends on a lot of things that we do not know - about the boat and the prospective owner. I agree with them

I put in the video for a bit of fun, it does not seem to have cheered you up. How was I to know it would trigger some sort of Mr Nasty tribute act? Mainly though, it's there to show the OP that cheap can be cheerful. Also as a little reminder to fat cats like you that some people do run 200 quid boats and they don't spend a fortune doing it. They laugh now and again. Though it must be wearing thin when told by blokes like you that their boats are a waste of time.

Spend 5 grand is great advice if you have got it. Next one will be to buy a new Bavaria I guess. Sadly, you are so far down your little nick all we can see is your cap.

What on earth are you smoking.

Your first sentence is just absolute nonsense. Did you not read what I wrote, or do you just have an aversion to facts? The boats you chose for comparison are NOT 2 small boats of similar size and your claims that costs will be similar are just not supported by facts.

You forget that for over 35 years I have owned and run a boat of similar size even older than the boat in question, most of the time on a shoestring so have a good understanding of what things cost and how much work is involved.

The only comment I made about the video is that they dropped the mast while trying to raise, perhaps because they were laughing and messing around rather than concentrating on the job - hardly Mr Nasty. What is all this nonsense about a fat cat? Who are you referring to - not me I hope - or do you have it in for everybody on here who has given the same advice? Nowhere have I mentioned £5k - although as many who have renovated old boats like this will tell you that he will end up spending far more than that. The consistent advice is that if you want to go sailing better to buy a functioning boat, which as I pointed out can be done for considerably less than that sum.

Please stop insulting me.

 

[solent clown]

Starting with a project is part of the fun for some of us, but one needs to have a really good look at something before buying. Out latest project boat cost us £750, more than I would normally pay, but it came really as a kit, with many new parts, good engine, new stern gland, brand new standing rigging, new cockpit cover and sprayhood, immaculate sails, and many spares,the list goes on. It is all these bits that add up if you buy a project without them. Ebay is a good starting point to watch some boats and get a handle on prices and condition. Do not forget to take the transport or storage costs into account too. If you take on a project, you need to budget not only money, but time. Having said that, it is a very satisfying process, and it has taken us from fixing up and building dinghys to a couple of 24ft yachts in little steps, learning all the way. We haven't made any money at it and do not expect to, but fixing up and trading up has been fun. Our next boat will be around 36ft - but not for a few years yet. Enjoy, and learn as you go, but look around for a bit, and find something you know has most of the bits on - from bitter experience I would say the single most important bit you simply cant get cheap is sails. The rest is relatively easy if you are handy.

 

[doug748]

What on earth are you smoking.
...........
Please stop insulting me.

I sense a certain psychological disconnect between the two statements.


However. Post 32.

You are stuck in an partial way of looking at matters, sociocentric is the word.
The impecunious boat owner does not make out the Jimmy Green online shopping list, nor does he order a white cover for his cap, moor in a marina or canvass sponsors for The Royal Yacht Squadron. He washes the stuff he has got and if he needs more rope he buys new 10mm stuff at a quid a meter, and gets the whipping twine out. By the same measure he inspects the standing rigging and if he needs to replace any buys a reel of stuff to make up his own. The length of rigging has little impact on cost over fittings.

Quite apart from being cheap, moving smaller boats in many (I would guess most) boatyards is relatively expensive, because of minimum charges. The difference between the 2 ton and 3 ton boats which have caught your imagination, in my yard, would be about a fiver for launch and chocking. The storage of a 26footer would be an extra £2.40 per week which does add up but most people could contemplate.

The extra area for painting certainly exists but the starting figures are so low it becomes largely irrelevant. 30% more from a tiny base is still not much paint or painting. People will be freshening up topsides with domestic paint and still be buying one can of antifoul every two years with either boat.

Don't worry about how many cylinders an engine has, it will either be mendable with improvised or secondhand parts or be scrapped. A range of engines will push a heavy 26 footer:

A secondhand 6hp longshaft would be nice for either boat, these 2 stroke plodders often change hands in the 200 quid range.

I mentioned a Folkboat to illustrate the relative weight of the 22footer, if it offends you, sorry. Another way of looking at it is two Sonatas.

Anyroad this will be my last contribution on this particular dendrite, but feel free to repeat yourself, again, if it feels right.



Let's hope the OP resurfaces with a new project.

 

[jamie N]

My Folkboat at 2000kgs, 'cruised' at 3.5kts. with the grunt of my 'extended long shaft' 2.3 Honda, powering it through the Pentland Firth even!
For the OP, the amount of work that he's able to do on the boat is going to critically affect the amount of dosh that he's going to have to shell out, the same is true for all of us. However, he's coming to it as a 'not too experienced boatie' I believe, which changes it all. The previous posts about joining a club, and getting the hours first, are absolutely right.