Unexpected find on lowering the furling genoa

[BabaYaga]

Took off the sails yesterday as lift out is approaching and found this shackle still kind of attaching the halyard to the top swivel.
Unexpected, but perhaps not so difficult to understand, given the lack of any seizing wire or cable tie (lesson learned).
But I am surprised that my genoa stayed up all season…

 

[Deleted member 478]

Bet you struggled to undo that knot?

 

[dunedin]

Bet you struggled to undo that knot?

With patience, screwdriver etc it is quite feasible to undo a halyard knot like that. Done a few times, even on main halyard on a knot which was tensioned by winching between main and genoa sheet winches.
But often better to simply cut off to move wear points on 6 inches
PS. Our jib halyard shackle is never moused - but tensioned with mole wrench

 

[vyv_cox]

I confess I have never moused a shackle in my life. I use Loctite 242 on critical items such as anchoring gear, our mooring was welded using rebar 'paper clips' and all others are tightened hard with a spanner. I only ever had one come undone, the mainsail outhaul just off Cuxhaven in 2002, but this one may never have been tightened.

 

[Refueler]

I don't shackle my halyards on ... I prefer to make halyard fast direct.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Took off the sails yesterday as lift out is approaching and found this shackle still kind of attaching the halyard to the top swivel.
Unexpected, but perhaps not so difficult to understand, given the lack of any seizing wire or cable tie (lesson learned).
But I am surprised that my genoa stayed up all season…

Went to the masthead to lower my furling system to replace the bearings in the foil, and found that my spinnaker halyard had been hanging on by (less than ) a thread in similar fashion!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don't shackle my halyards on ... I prefer to make halyard fast direct.

We do that on the jib snd spinnaker, the main halyard has to be removed after dropping, so has a ball and loop attachment. And most things ‘permanent’ on the boat are spliced in situ. Like the bowsprit bridle, traveller lines, running backstay lines.

 

[johnalison]

The devil looks after his own.

 

[BabaYaga]

My genoa furling system has three of these shackles (halyard to top swivel, top swivel to ring at head of sail, ring at tack of sail to bottom swivel). Normal routine is to do them up with a spanner at the beginning of the season – I have had no issues for 30 years until now.
Most likely I forgot or was a bit careless with the tightening of this one. I think my new routine will be to mouse with a cable tie, certainly for the two at the top which are difficult to inspect.
The shackle in question is a 6mm bow shackle from Wichard, probably of the same age as the furling system. When looking in the Wichard catalogue for a replacement
Self-locking bow shackle - Dia 6 mm | Wichard Marine
I find that they have a line of shackles that are said to be self-locking (I am not sure if these were available 30 years ago).
Does anyone know whether this self-locking mechanism is reliable?

BTW, using shackles is the only option for attaching sail and halyard to the furling system, top swivel looks something like this:
Unit 0 MKIV Halyard Swivel - without Shackles

 

[srm]

Does anyone know whether this self-locking mechanism is reliable?

Probably, I have been using one (or something similar) for years on my main halyard without any problems. Easy to use, as long as I remember which way to turn it, but occasionally needs my small shifter to help unlock it.

 

[Refueler]

I don't shackle my halyards on ... I prefer to make halyard fast direct.

I cannot see the point of making halyard fast to a shackle - then shackle to the sail. Unless halyard has eye splice ?? Why introduce TWO fastening points when a bowline and security half hitch is quick - easily undone .. is only one fastening etc.

I can undo my bowline / hitch as fast or faster with no tools needed than a shackle.... which will normally require a shackle key or tool.

 

[BabaYaga]

I cannot see the point of making halyard fast to a shackle - then shackle to the sail. Unless halyard has eye splice ?? Why introduce TWO fastening points when a bowline and security half hitch is quick - easily undone .. is only one fastening etc.

I can undo my bowline / hitch as fast or faster with no tools needed than a shackle.... which will normally require a shackle key or tool.

Mine is a furling genoa. The halyard is made fast to the top swivel, not to the sail. Please refer to the link in post #9. Using a shackle is the only option.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Obviously the thread should br titled ‘unexpected item in the genoa bagging area’

but apart from that, what difference does the swivel make? Is there anyone here without a roller reefing system? Our halyard, thinking about it, is one of our permanent splices, it’s a1 year old dyneema line so lots of life left. The jib is attached with a soft shackle.

 

[Refueler]

Mine is a furling genoa. The halyard is made fast to the top swivel, not to the sail. Please refer to the link in post #9. Using a shackle is the only option.

Fair comment .....

My 609 only uses a shackle because I have two lines go to the top swivel ..... one is the halyard, other is the anti-twist line that stops swivel from turning and wrapping halyard and being a double swivel - shackle is cranked to clear the top part ...

If I was on hanked sails or without the double swivel as in a 406

I would definitely do away with any shackle. My Main is without shackle .... all boats I hae before this were without shackles to fore and mains.

But anyway - back to your shackle which my post was actually aimed at ....

Looking at the shackle used ... its a common shackle - not the cranked shackle as needed on such as my 608 / 609 and higher models Plastimo - the cranked design is to clear the upper swivel part and also impart an angle to try stop halyard wrap. Your shackle is not doing that ... and I maintain - if a cranked shackle is not called for ... such as the 406 and or whatever furler you - then if halyard can pass through swivels 'eye' - why add a shackle ??

Honest - I'm asking not telling.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I cannot see the point of making halyard fast to a shackle - then shackle to the sail. Unless halyard has eye splice ?? Why introduce TWO fastening points when a bowline and security half hitch is quick - easily undone .. is only one fastening etc.

I can undo my bowline / hitch as fast or faster with no tools needed than a shackle.... which will normally require a shackle key or tool.

Our main halyard is dyneema spliced onto a captive shackle by Whichard. We need to move the halyard to the end of the boom when we’re alongside to stop it slatting against the mast. It would be a complete PITA to use a bowline to attach the halyard to the head of the main sail. I’m 6’2 1/2” and I can just reach but other crew more vertically challenged need to use a step. Tying and untying a knot stretching above your head would be silly. We use one of these.
Key pin shackle with bar - Dia 6 mm | Wichard Marine
You can’t lose the shackle and you can’t lose the pin. You don’t need a shackle key or tool.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Obviously the thread should br titled ‘unexpected item in the genoa bagging area’

but apart from that, what difference does the swivel make? Is there anyone here without a roller reefing system? Our halyard, thinking about it, is one of our permanent splices, it’s a1 year old dyneema line so lots of life left. The jib is attached with a soft shackle.

On my swivel the only way to attach the halyard to the sliding part, and the sail to the rotating part, is by means of traditional shackles, as the holes provided are far too small for soft ones.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Our main halyard is dyneema spliced onto a captive shackle by Whichard. We need to move the halyard to the end of the boom when we’re alongside to stop it slatting against the mast. It would be a complete PITA to use a bowline to attach the halyard to the head of the main sail. I’m 6’2 1/2” and I can just reach but other crew more vertically challenged need to use a step. Tying and untying a knot stretching above your head would be silly. We use one of these.
Key pin shackle with bar - Dia 6 mm | Wichard Marine
You can’t lose the shackle and you can’t lose the pin. You don’t need a shackle key or tool.

Mine is similar. These captive pin shackles seem to come as OEM on French-built boats.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Mine is similar. These captive pin shackles seem to come as OEM on French-built boats.

The late John Goode introduced me to them over thirty years ago.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

On my swivel the only way to attach the halyard to the sliding part, and the sail to the rotating part, is by means of traditional shackles, as the holes provided are far too small for soft ones.

It’s tight on ours, plus I smoothed the edges. But the loop can just be persuaded, the hole is for a 6mm pin with a bit to spare

 

[Refueler]

I know this may be heretic talk .... but has no-one considered that the average genny halyard used on a furling gear is grossly oversized ? A large part of the force trying to 'collapse' the luff is actually held by the foil. The halyard is doing two jobs : One holding up the luff and second to reduce halyard wrap .

If you look at Profurl 2000 as example - the halyard is redundant and has no play in it whatsever. The sail is hoisted by use of the furling line itself. End travels up one of the foil grooves to top and over a sheave and back down second foil groove. You then make fast to the sail head ..... You then at base of furler pull the furling line to hoist the sail up that second groove and once hoisted - lock off the line on the drum. Remainder of furling line then goes back to cockpit as the operation line. When you remove sail - you pull sail down - which brings the end of furli9ng line to you ... etc.
What diameter line is that ? Certainly nowhere near the gauge we use on other furlers .....

Their are only two excuses really for the oversized genny halyards really ... 1. it was what was on boat as standard for hanked, 2. to put enough tension to stop good old Plastimo and similar from halyard wrap.

Because of my extra small line to prevent wrap ... I did consider reducing my genny halyard diameter .... but when I was offered a full reel at discount price - I stayed with original.