Refueler
Well-Known Member
Correct but my point is that in winter freezing conditions - its particularly bad.
Unattended electric heaters
- Thread starter MikeBz
- Start date
Correct but my point is that in winter freezing conditions - its particularly bad.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Actually, in freezing conditions self-discharge slows to nothing.
We've got a lot of cold here and it just isn't much of a problem. Charge the battery at lay up and take off one cable. Or top up the water and leave the solar on.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Please go back and read that I said :
"You only have to not have that battery full charged at start of winter ... temps drop and that can be your battery ruined. I have had that happen not only the boat but also with Lawn Tractors ... where my Gardener unplugged and failed to reconnect ... Its to do with Electrolyte and its density / acid salts .... full charged is higher density / full of acid salts. Freezes at significantly lower temp. If you think it doesn;t happen ... I had a 90A/hr split its case on board for that very reason ... cleaning up that mess even though contained in battery box was a real pain."
My point is that a part charged battery can be destroyed by that winter freeze at significantly less cold temp than a fully charged. Nowhere did I mention Self Discharge.
But I did comment on solar ... its fine here as long as its not winter ... when you have inches of snow covering the panel - its no use to you at all ....
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Such debate.
Yes, obviously if the battery is low there can be problems. That is part of winter prep.
You need very, very little solar. As long as the snow cover is not complete for 3 months, no problem. If it is, go back to the slow self-discharge in cold weather. As I have repeated, it's just not a problem here. People prepare ... or they don't. But I don't want a charger hooked into my neighbors boat if he does not prepare. What else did he do wrong? Is there a heater? Will the batteries cook and overheat (with low solar inputs this is not likely)?
I've seen boatyard fires. They commonly spread from boat to boat due to close spacing. No thanks.
Anyway, it's in the fire code, so it is accepted and planned for.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
According to Lusty your dehumidifiers risk catching fire, which will certainly dry things, though not in a pleasing manner. However I expect you mount them clear of inflamables, but do you have any issues
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
No issues. Meaco Junior DD8 and as I said it spends the majority of its time in sleep mode as the boat interior is dry and leak free. It cools itself down as part of entering sleep mode. Used for 4 months each year. Quite probably not necessary all the time.
I also have another dehumidifier running 24/7/52 at home, plus a second at home in winter time. No problems with these, and not aware of any warnings about fire risk from them. All need their filters cleaned regularly.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
In my 67yrs ..... 62 of them boating ... I have only ever seen one fire in a boat yard - and that was deliberate by a local hooligan who was ushered off site - returned later and put to flame a Dunkirk Little Ship and boat either side.
I was then asked to write reports on each boat for Insurance Claims ...
What I have seen more often - are boats fallen over due to storm winds or poorly used / unsuitable cradles.
Given that most of the world allows connection of boats to mains power when afloat and ashore - I would have expected to hear of more fires ?? Note I was in the business of Yacht Surveying for many years ... not only in UK.
jbweston
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any evidence of a dehumidifer catching fire on a boat? If so I'd like to see it. I'm not doubting anyone's word but I do wonder if this is an urban myth. If it happens (or ever happened) it would be interesting to read the report as to how and why.
It reminds me of the view that televisons should be turned off at the socket when not in use as they sometimes cause fires. An otherise very sensible friend of mine always did this. He never had a TV fire, so maybe it works - on the same principle that carrying a pink umbrella prevents attack by Martians.
I don't doubt that it's possible for any item of mains electrical equipment to catch fire but if a dehumidifier is in good condition, well-positioned and protected by a fuse or circuit breaker I should have thought the chances of a fire are vanishingly small.
Snowgoose-1
Well-Known Member
Not heard of any .
We all are now aware of charging scooters etc.
Going the other way, I run a humidifier in my bedroom every night. I'm still here.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Some years ago a similar discussion took place here and several people gave an opinion. During this, one of the contributors had his dehumidifier catch fire and wreck his power boat. Remarkable really. Someone else must remember it?
doug748
Well-Known Member
Found it. Bloody hell, 2003!
Anyway the boat was not written off and mjf (4000 posts) reported back later (attached photos not available) :
" Sorry this has taken sooo long to report but apart from getting the boat sorted and getting over the incident it was several on here who convinced me to tell the tail when at LIBS earlier this year
Here goes..
My Princess Flybridge was moored on her permanent Swanwick marina berth last April and I was sitting on the outside cockpit seat with the cockpit door pulled too, as it was a little damp overnight and still a bit foggy - another sunny day was in prospect. All was well with the world as the smell of bacon wafted down the pontoon
Fabulous Spring sunshine had seen the cockpit cover off for several days now and the boat ready for the season ahead.
After a while I could smell a slight burning odour and thought it similar to an over enthusiastic polishing buffer - but no 'local' work was being undertaken. The breakfast had long gone! I knew that nothing electrical was plugged in my saloon, galley nor indeed the forward owner’s suite. Only a dehumidifier was ‘running ‘ in the second (Stbd) guest twin cabin and this had been moved to its regular 'when on board' position between the two single berths and was set to medium (this setting is never changed) on its humidistat since before Easter the week before.
The usual practice when the boat is left is to position the unit in the galley with a water drain into the galley sink, and once on board it’s moved to the Stbd cabin and emptied when needed thus maintaining a dry atmosphere whilst on board. The cabin door is generally closed when the saloon is ‘open cockpit’ and left a jar at night and when we are asleep in the master suite.
The only time I entered this cabin was the day before to empty the water container.
The burning smell became stronger and stronger and by this stage I was becoming concerned as I could not trace the third party source.
After a while I decided to check if my boat was indeed causing the burning smell and opened the cockpit door (closed as it was damp outside) to check. I found a slight mist and as I advanced forward to the galley area the smoke was denser, the smell got ever stronger and to my horror I could see the source was behind the guest cabin door as thick smoke outlined the door frame. I keep a fire extinguisher in the galley opposite and I took this, removing the safety pin in the smoke, and opened the door wondering what horror I would find inside. I attempted to set off the dry power unit - to no avail, despite pressing the top nothing happened. I could not see due to the dense smoke. I re closed the cabin door. Well you don’t expect this in a moment of danger – what to do now? The smoke was causing me to cough and my eyes where very sore by now.
I exited to the cockpit and inspecting the extinguisher saw that the trigger from the top of the unit was missing along with the safety pin. Blimey!
Several thoughts went through my mind including using the domestic FW hose on the pontoon nearby and using a spray head to hide behind and clear some smoke as I had another go at the fire. This I concluded would take too long and really I had only seconds to spare as clearly I had added fuel (air) to the seat of the fire during the failed attempt!
In the end I shouted loudly for assistance and then returned forward to get another extinguisher that is kept in the owners suite, the smoke was even heavier now and I had to crawl forward on hands and knees– once I had removed the safety pin where I could see it, I again opened the guest cabin door and keeping on the floor was able to discharge this unit onto the base of the flames I could now vaguely see through the smoke. Once fully discharged I again closed the cabin door and evacuated the boat. I really thought this time the boat might be lost as the flames were large and once I closed the door I had no idea if I had been successful.
There was black smoke billowing out of the cockpit doors as I stood shaking on the pontoon.
Happily there were some other boat owners and several contractors running towards me, as well as marina duty staff - all with fire extinguishers ready to assist further if needed.
I was concerned that I may not have fully extinguished the fire but we needed to remove some smoke without feeding further air to the fire. I was pleased to note no flames coming from the main helm nor foredeck. After several minutes anxious wait, with a saloon window open, we were able to re-board and check the second cabin. No new smoke was a positive sign. On inspection the fire was out, and the dehumidifier had melted in the heat it was clearly the source of the fire. What a mess though!
At this time the missing trigger was found on the galley sole along with two guard/safety pins – the trigger on the first extinguisher had been knocked off in error when I removed the safety pin and had been unseen during the fire due to the very dense smoke. Bad design
I could certainly have done without effectively fighting two fires before coffee that morning!
As a friend pointed out at the time – if the fire had occurred just a couple of hours earlier when the cabin door would have allowed air to quickly feed the fire I could easily have been asphyxiated, then cremated before being ‘buried at sea’ on my own marina berth.
Lessons/ observations
• Compressor type – now replaced by desiccant method
• Powered by mains 240v single plug / single socket
• Unit was well ventilated and dust screen cleaned but caught fire
• Stable position – even at sea
• No smoke alarm fitted O/B– this rectified
• No fire blanket O/B– this would have been used when initial extinguished failed and is now installed
• Fire Extinguisher design now changed to metal trigger that cannot snap off in error.
• Remove safety pin and check trigger Ok in good visibility.
• The incident could have proved fatal had I been asleep in the master suite and damage to my boat and those surrounding it severe.
• May consider a water or foam domestic extinguisher additionally as the DP caused huge cosmetic damage, but was hugely effective.
After telephoning my wife at work, my next call was to my insurer Pantaenius who were extremely supportive, I advised I was unsure if there would be a claim but suggested an adjuster might like to visit in case my costs exceeded my deductable.
I was told that Pantaenius’ top priority was to ensure that the boat was restored to her former glory and initially commission a full interior professional clean ASAP. There would be no excess/deductable, as it was a fire claim, and no survey was required – I was to fully support costs when my claim was filed and keep them advised on progress, but they again pushed me to get the restoration started promptly so I could enjoy my boating.
I discovered afterwards that had the boat been lost the full insured value would have been settled without depreciation nor excess.
Very re assuring frankly esp. when their premium is quoted/ paid on % pa on insured value ..
Interestingly there is no smoke alarm on many production boats that have quite sophisticated factory fitted engine room and Lazarette fire systems.
Several friends have changed their dehumidifiers to desiccant type thus avoiding compressor malfunction/overheating; Many have purchased fire blankets and smoke alarms now too.
I sleep with a smoke alarm on the bedside area now
Horse bolted………….Just feels safer
PMYS Swanwick came to the rescue and organized a chap from the third party factory team of upholstery makers to reline the cabin as despite huge efforts the smoke damage would not shift. There was no other fire damage to the boat; only some odd clothes and bedding / mattresses required replacement. "
Anyway the boat was not written off and mjf (4000 posts) reported back later (attached photos not available) :
" Sorry this has taken sooo long to report but apart from getting the boat sorted and getting over the incident it was several on here who convinced me to tell the tail when at LIBS earlier this year
Here goes..
My Princess Flybridge was moored on her permanent Swanwick marina berth last April and I was sitting on the outside cockpit seat with the cockpit door pulled too, as it was a little damp overnight and still a bit foggy - another sunny day was in prospect. All was well with the world as the smell of bacon wafted down the pontoon
Fabulous Spring sunshine had seen the cockpit cover off for several days now and the boat ready for the season ahead.
After a while I could smell a slight burning odour and thought it similar to an over enthusiastic polishing buffer - but no 'local' work was being undertaken. The breakfast had long gone! I knew that nothing electrical was plugged in my saloon, galley nor indeed the forward owner’s suite. Only a dehumidifier was ‘running ‘ in the second (Stbd) guest twin cabin and this had been moved to its regular 'when on board' position between the two single berths and was set to medium (this setting is never changed) on its humidistat since before Easter the week before.
The usual practice when the boat is left is to position the unit in the galley with a water drain into the galley sink, and once on board it’s moved to the Stbd cabin and emptied when needed thus maintaining a dry atmosphere whilst on board. The cabin door is generally closed when the saloon is ‘open cockpit’ and left a jar at night and when we are asleep in the master suite.
The only time I entered this cabin was the day before to empty the water container.
The burning smell became stronger and stronger and by this stage I was becoming concerned as I could not trace the third party source.
After a while I decided to check if my boat was indeed causing the burning smell and opened the cockpit door (closed as it was damp outside) to check. I found a slight mist and as I advanced forward to the galley area the smoke was denser, the smell got ever stronger and to my horror I could see the source was behind the guest cabin door as thick smoke outlined the door frame. I keep a fire extinguisher in the galley opposite and I took this, removing the safety pin in the smoke, and opened the door wondering what horror I would find inside. I attempted to set off the dry power unit - to no avail, despite pressing the top nothing happened. I could not see due to the dense smoke. I re closed the cabin door. Well you don’t expect this in a moment of danger – what to do now? The smoke was causing me to cough and my eyes where very sore by now.
I exited to the cockpit and inspecting the extinguisher saw that the trigger from the top of the unit was missing along with the safety pin. Blimey!
Several thoughts went through my mind including using the domestic FW hose on the pontoon nearby and using a spray head to hide behind and clear some smoke as I had another go at the fire. This I concluded would take too long and really I had only seconds to spare as clearly I had added fuel (air) to the seat of the fire during the failed attempt!
In the end I shouted loudly for assistance and then returned forward to get another extinguisher that is kept in the owners suite, the smoke was even heavier now and I had to crawl forward on hands and knees– once I had removed the safety pin where I could see it, I again opened the guest cabin door and keeping on the floor was able to discharge this unit onto the base of the flames I could now vaguely see through the smoke. Once fully discharged I again closed the cabin door and evacuated the boat. I really thought this time the boat might be lost as the flames were large and once I closed the door I had no idea if I had been successful.
There was black smoke billowing out of the cockpit doors as I stood shaking on the pontoon.
Happily there were some other boat owners and several contractors running towards me, as well as marina duty staff - all with fire extinguishers ready to assist further if needed.
I was concerned that I may not have fully extinguished the fire but we needed to remove some smoke without feeding further air to the fire. I was pleased to note no flames coming from the main helm nor foredeck. After several minutes anxious wait, with a saloon window open, we were able to re-board and check the second cabin. No new smoke was a positive sign. On inspection the fire was out, and the dehumidifier had melted in the heat it was clearly the source of the fire. What a mess though!
At this time the missing trigger was found on the galley sole along with two guard/safety pins – the trigger on the first extinguisher had been knocked off in error when I removed the safety pin and had been unseen during the fire due to the very dense smoke. Bad design
I could certainly have done without effectively fighting two fires before coffee that morning!
As a friend pointed out at the time – if the fire had occurred just a couple of hours earlier when the cabin door would have allowed air to quickly feed the fire I could easily have been asphyxiated, then cremated before being ‘buried at sea’ on my own marina berth.
Lessons/ observations
• Compressor type – now replaced by desiccant method
• Powered by mains 240v single plug / single socket
• Unit was well ventilated and dust screen cleaned but caught fire
• Stable position – even at sea
• No smoke alarm fitted O/B– this rectified
• No fire blanket O/B– this would have been used when initial extinguished failed and is now installed
• Fire Extinguisher design now changed to metal trigger that cannot snap off in error.
• Remove safety pin and check trigger Ok in good visibility.
• The incident could have proved fatal had I been asleep in the master suite and damage to my boat and those surrounding it severe.
• May consider a water or foam domestic extinguisher additionally as the DP caused huge cosmetic damage, but was hugely effective.
After telephoning my wife at work, my next call was to my insurer Pantaenius who were extremely supportive, I advised I was unsure if there would be a claim but suggested an adjuster might like to visit in case my costs exceeded my deductable.
I was told that Pantaenius’ top priority was to ensure that the boat was restored to her former glory and initially commission a full interior professional clean ASAP. There would be no excess/deductable, as it was a fire claim, and no survey was required – I was to fully support costs when my claim was filed and keep them advised on progress, but they again pushed me to get the restoration started promptly so I could enjoy my boating.
I discovered afterwards that had the boat been lost the full insured value would have been settled without depreciation nor excess.
Very re assuring frankly esp. when their premium is quoted/ paid on % pa on insured value ..
Interestingly there is no smoke alarm on many production boats that have quite sophisticated factory fitted engine room and Lazarette fire systems.
Several friends have changed their dehumidifiers to desiccant type thus avoiding compressor malfunction/overheating; Many have purchased fire blankets and smoke alarms now too.
I sleep with a smoke alarm on the bedside area now
Horse bolted………….Just feels safer
PMYS Swanwick came to the rescue and organized a chap from the third party factory team of upholstery makers to reline the cabin as despite huge efforts the smoke damage would not shift. There was no other fire damage to the boat; only some odd clothes and bedding / mattresses required replacement. "
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Its the dessicant ones that are greatest risk as desicant pack needs cooling fan on during shut down process. The compressors on those kind oif dehumidifiers that might be a risk. All of which is only present if no free airflow around the unit plus close inflamables. I am only reporting Lustys words and queried them myself as to actual applicability except for larger domestic installations on house boats etc
Momac
Well-Known Member
In winter I use a Meaco desiccant dehumidifier , a tube heater and small frost protection heater . The dehumidifier is on all the time and the heaters cut in on frost protection thermostats.
I have been using these on the boat over winter for several years . The dehumidifier about 5 winters.
The electricity is metered so no reason for the marina to unplug any boats.
I don't usually stay overnight on the boat in the winter months . But if I did stay on the boat in the marina it would be diesel heating on and plenty of ventilation and an electric blanket on the bed .
I have been using these on the boat over winter for several years . The dehumidifier about 5 winters.
The electricity is metered so no reason for the marina to unplug any boats.
I don't usually stay overnight on the boat in the winter months . But if I did stay on the boat in the marina it would be diesel heating on and plenty of ventilation and an electric blanket on the bed .
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
With some trepidation I searched for history and evidence of dehumidifier fires. There were some problems with older models pre 2013ish but I can find little evidence of fires. There are cases where there is an associated electrical fault and where the unit is not operated correctly such as covered or placed in very restricted areas.
My view is that the risk is very small and probably roughly similar to that from charging phone, tablet, Torqeedo battery, using a microwave, running the Eberspacher or suffering a short circuit in the boat wiring.
My view is that the risk is very small and probably roughly similar to that from charging phone, tablet, Torqeedo battery, using a microwave, running the Eberspacher or suffering a short circuit in the boat wiring.
Alex_Blackwood
Well-Known Member
All electrical appliances carry a risk of fire, attended or unattended, end off! Do your own risk assessment on how much greater, or less, the risk is in each case.
You cannot with any certainty say that anything is 100% safe. This includes mains and 12 volt DC. and not just the equipment but all the attendant wiring and power supplies. As for heaters etc. Small tubular heaters probably carry the least risk. Each installation is unique and carries its own inherent risk. Equipment should obviously be sited so that it cannot be obstructed or covered by loose objects etc. e.g. Those bits of paper left on the St'bd berth!
As far as marinas are concerned, due to their installation characteristics, they are more likely to carry the risk of power outages than the average domestic property. This includes tripping due to faults and possible unscheduled maintenance of the system. Consideration should therefore be given as to the suitability of the equipment used on board vessels. if it cannot stand outages. Is it suitable??
You cannot with any certainty say that anything is 100% safe. This includes mains and 12 volt DC. and not just the equipment but all the attendant wiring and power supplies. As for heaters etc. Small tubular heaters probably carry the least risk. Each installation is unique and carries its own inherent risk. Equipment should obviously be sited so that it cannot be obstructed or covered by loose objects etc. e.g. Those bits of paper left on the St'bd berth!
As far as marinas are concerned, due to their installation characteristics, they are more likely to carry the risk of power outages than the average domestic property. This includes tripping due to faults and possible unscheduled maintenance of the system. Consideration should therefore be given as to the suitability of the equipment used on board vessels. if it cannot stand outages. Is it suitable??
Momac
Well-Known Member
There is also the matter of the consequences of not keeping the boat interior reasonably dry and protecting against frost as far as is reasonably possible.
Not just the financial cost and inconvenience of repairing damage of but also the potential health cost associated with damp furnishings or mould.
Any small risk from electrical appliances is outweighed by the benefits.
Not just the financial cost and inconvenience of repairing damage of but also the potential health cost associated with damp furnishings or mould.
Any small risk from electrical appliances is outweighed by the benefits.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I actually agree ... maybe. It's hard to say what the risk is of something that isn't done. People can set up heaters pretty stupid. But fires afloat seem just as likely and more common (usually either shore power or bilge pump). I keep a very small Petlier dehumidifier on the boat and don't worry about it. I do place it on a fire resistant surface (stove) next to the sink where it drains (through hull above the WL), and make sure the cords run where they won't trap heat.
Heaters and compressor dehumidifiers worry me more. They draw enough power to heat cords and plugs. And I feel like neither is needed; you don't need that much heat or dehumidifying for a boat that is not occupied. Just a little bit.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I cannot help but think 'nanny state' is in this a bit ...
I agree that in years gone by - risks were taken mainly by lack of knowledge or just plain - it will never happen to me ...
Today though - the limitations imposed on society are based on 'protecting the stupid' and this brings it onto all ..
I work in an industry that is fraught with millions of traps that can prove catastrophic not only for immediate vicinty - but large area. It makes me possibly what you would not expect. A little lax when it comes to other areas ..... I know yo would expect the opposite ... but maybe because of the 'nanny state' and the constant safety awareness in my work - that I 'enjoy' that bit of freedom ?
But please do not misunderstand - I would not put at risk my boat or any near me ...
I agree that in years gone by - risks were taken mainly by lack of knowledge or just plain - it will never happen to me ...
Today though - the limitations imposed on society are based on 'protecting the stupid' and this brings it onto all ..
I work in an industry that is fraught with millions of traps that can prove catastrophic not only for immediate vicinty - but large area. It makes me possibly what you would not expect. A little lax when it comes to other areas ..... I know yo would expect the opposite ... but maybe because of the 'nanny state' and the constant safety awareness in my work - that I 'enjoy' that bit of freedom ?
But please do not misunderstand - I would not put at risk my boat or any near me ...
Momac
Well-Known Member
Its a good idea to visually inspect electrical appliances for any signs of damage that might have occurred in storage and to see there is no dirt or the like which might be an issue when the heater warms up. Inspect the plug and cable.
A dehumidifier will probably have a filter which might look okay but could benefit from a clean.
A dehumidifier will probably have a filter which might look okay but could benefit from a clean.
Alex_Blackwood
Well-Known Member
All part of your "Risk assessment"
