Ultrasonic antifouling?

[jfm]

All agreed Ellesar. I am quite certain that is was very effective on my hull. I really do need to post the photos. I actually I set up control patches on my hull, which were 0.5m square patches of hull with no antifoul paint

But as discussed it did nothing for the props. Alas I cannot see that mounting a vibrator on the P bracket will help anywhere other than the actual p bracket, becuase the shaft sits in a sloppy rubber cutlass bearing. You might be better clamping the gizmo on the shaft inside the engine room with a clamp device that you remove when you go to sea (with a suitable anti-forgetfullness device). Come to think of it, that's quite a good idea... I might try that, even tho it will involve spending another £2k on usaf vibrators, jeeze. It would make sense to do it just on one shaft for starters, then you can do a perfect comparison of with/without

 

[kashurst]

I am beginning to think its worth having the USAF as the makers claim that you do not need to antifoul the hull every year but every 3 - 5 years instead. The experiences some of you have had with hull protection bear out their claim.
It cost me £300 this spring to have boat lifted and props shafts etc antifouled with an epoxy based AF for metal bits, which does seem to work but only lasts @ 8 months (and its has stayed on!). If I use USAF on the hull and just pay for shaft prop cleaning that would be quite a saving

 

[grumpy_o_g]

All agreed Ellesar. I am quite certain that is was very effective on my hull. I really do need to post the photos. I actually I set up control patches on my hull, which were 0.5m square patches of hull with no antifoul paint

But as discussed it did nothing for the props. Alas I cannot see that mounting a vibrator on the P bracket will help anywhere other than the actual p bracket, becuase the shaft sits in a sloppy rubber cutlass bearing. You might be better clamping the gizmo on the shaft inside the engine room with a clamp device that you remove when you go to sea (with a suitable anti-forgetfullness device). Come to think of it, that's quite a good idea... I might try that, even tho it will involve spending another £2k on usaf vibrators, jeeze. It would make sense to do it just on one shaft for starters, then you can do a perfect comparison of with/without

That's a brilliant idea jfm http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3081108&postcount=12

 

[aquatom]

There has already been a system that mounts on to the shaft. It uses a springloaded arm like shaft brushes. It didn't work and we were asked to remove the system!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

JFMs boat is in Antibes. Hugely different to Mallorca? These ones that you know that don't work, what make, where was it mounted, how was it powered?

No, Med sterngear fouling is the same wherever you go. Its just the degree of fouling that differs. I've had my boat in SoF, Costa Blanca, Mallorca and Croatia and the barnacle type fouling on sterngear has been the same, although less in Croatia (I think because the water temp is a couple of degrees lower). Sterngear fouling in the Med is far more aggressive than in the UK; for example the boats I had in SoF and Majorca could easily lose 5-7kts in 2 months over the summer. In Majorca, I was employing a diver 3 times a season there to keep the sterngear clean.
I have yet to see any test results that indicate that u/s systems have any effect whatsoever on sterngear fouling on Med boats. Hull fouling, on the pother hand, has never been a problem for me on my Med boats; in fact I often made antifoul paint last 2 seasons in Majorca. So, any reports that u/s systems reduce hull fouling in the Med won't impress me because as jfm says, standard antifoul paint works fine.
Anyone that can come up with a system that eliminates sterngear fouling on Med boats will be on to a goldmine but, sadly, I don't think u/s systems are it

 

[jfm]

That's a brilliant idea jfm http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3081108&postcount=12

Ha! Sorry G-o-G, I didn't mean to pinch your idea and fully concede that all the £millions of patent royalties are yours not mine . Just goes to show, we do er, go a bit round in circles on this forum eh? I'll post my USAF pics soon as penance

I still reckon it's quite a good idea (of yours) though

 

[Montemar]

I think that fibreglass is hard and resilient enough to transmit the vibes without suffering from stress damage. The movement will be small because the frequencies will be not far above the limits of hearing ie 20KHz.
It seems better to invest in an asset than continual outgoing on antifouling each year plus the performance bonus throughout the summer.
My boat is in Weymouth where sea and fresh water mix giving the worst conditions for fouling, this season the boat cannot now get over 20 knots which is a loss of 8 since being cleaned, painted and launched in early April! Fuel consumtion in a Sealine S23 with a KAD32 is only 2mpg ish.
I think I will go for it and will test it and record the results for a future posting.
Many thanks for your valued opinions.

 

[Hurricane]

I think that fibreglass is hard and resilient enough to transmit the vibes without suffering from stress damage. The movement will be small because the frequencies will be not far above the limits of hearing ie 20KHz.
It seems better to invest in an asset than continual outgoing on antifouling each year plus the performance bonus throughout the summer.
My boat is in Weymouth where sea and fresh water mix giving the worst conditions for fouling, this season the boat cannot now get over 20 knots which is a loss of 8 since being cleaned, painted and launched in early April! Fuel consumtion in a Sealine S23 with a KAD32 is only 2mpg ish.
I think I will go for it and will test it and record the results for a future posting.
Many thanks for your valued opinions.

Why not invest in Coppercoat rather than Ultrasonics.
A treatment that actually works.
There are lots of cases where people have saved "big time" using Coppercoat.
I dont see the point in Ultrasonics - you still need antifouling and it doesnt protect the props etc.
Whereas an investment in Coppercoat you woud actually save in conventional antifoul over the next 10 years or so.

 

[DougH]

JFMs boat is in Antibes. Hugely different to Mallorca? These ones that you know that don't work, what make, where was it mounted, how was it powered?

It took me a year of trying it before I would sell it. Setting expectation is a sensible thing to do. That's not a "but".

Elessar, if you are so certain that it works and that it would work in Mallorca may I suggest you accept the following proposal:

1) You come to Mallorca and install a system on my boat (I will pay all your air fares and hotel expenses etc) and I will lodge double the system cost with a solicitor of your choice.
You will not receive any payment for the system until at least 12 months have passed and will only receive the doubled payment if the system has worked on the props and rudders.

2) All results to be published on the Forum.

3) Aquatom to be able to check the boat and make his comments to any party.

How about it, are you up for the challenge?

 

[rubberduck]

What would be the typical cost of coppercoat on an average 40' sports boat ?

 

[Nick_H]

Why not invest in Coppercoat rather than Ultrasonics.
A treatment that actually works.
There are lots of cases where people have saved "big time" using Coppercoat.
I dont see the point in Ultrasonics - you still need antifouling and it doesnt protect the props etc.
Whereas an investment in Coppercoat you woud actually save in conventional antifoul over the next 10 years or so.

I have Coppercoat on the Windy, and it works, but it's not as effective against fouling as eroding antifoul, and contrary to popular opinion I don't think it saves you any time or money.

Coppercoat is ten times as expensive to buy as eroding antifoul (to apply five coats as reccomended), and takes about five times as long to apply. Each year you really have to lift the boat and sand down the coppercoat, which is actually more work than antifouling it (rollering with paint takes less elbow grease than sanding, ask any decorator).

So you spend in year 1 what you would spend on eroding anti foul in 10 years, you have five times the work initially, then a similar amount of work each year, you still have lifting costs, and its less effective than normal antifoul so you lose out in speed/fuel consumption over the year.

The only real advantage, and the reason I did it, is that you can visit Sealift as many times as you like during the season without reducing the effectiveness of the anti-fouling. I wouldn't bother again though.

 

[maby]

I ...

Coppercoat is ten times as expensive to buy as eroding antifoul (to apply five coats as reccomended), and takes about five times as long to apply. Each year you really have to lift the boat and sand down the coppercoat, which is actually more work than antifouling it (rollering with paint takes less elbow grease than sanding, ask any decorator).

...
though.

I'm not sure this is true - certainly you are supposed to pressure wash and "lightly abrade"
the Coppercoat each year, but most people would expect to sand down eroding antifouling each year before applying the new coat and I would normally sand it more aggressively than the light abrasion Coppercoat recommends....

 

[Nick_H]

most people would expect to sand down eroding antifouling each year before applying the new coat and I would normally sand it more aggressively than the light abrasion Coppercoat recommends....

I've never sanded down eroding antifoul before applying new, and i've never seen a boatyard do that either, so I question your "most people" assertion. The top layer comes off with the jetwasher, which provides a good surface for new antifoul.

 

[maby]

I've never sanded down eroding antifoul before applying new, and i've never seen a boatyard do that either, so I question your "most people" assertion. The top layer comes off with the jetwasher, which provides a good surface for new antifoul.

Hmmm, in that case the many owners that spend hours sanding and scraping in our marina boat-park each spring must be wasting their time!

 

[Nick_H]

From the International Paints web site for Cruiser Uno (http://www.yachtpaint.com/MPYACMDatasheets/Cruiser_UNO+eng+A4+Y+20100628.pdf):

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
One coat antifouling designed for both power (up to 25 knots) and sailing boats.
* Single season's antifouling protection
* In most cases there is no need to seal main stream antifouling schemes
* No need to sand before re-coating

PREVIOUSLY ANTIFOULED SURFACE
In Good Condition Rinse with fresh water and allow to dry. If old antifouling is incompatible or unknown, seal with
Primocon.
In Poor Condition Use Interstrip to remove all traces of antifouling.

So yes, in my opinion, they're wasting their time

 

[vas]

Nick, I agree that it seems to be pointless on a newish and good condition hull, but it does add 10-20kg per year to the hull, doesn't it?
At some point along the line, it's going to built half an inch AF and inevitably will start flaking/falling apart, what do you do then?

Rhetorical question I know, for example on the wooden hull I've bought there are bits where there's only 1-2 coats of old AF, areas with 4-5 that is flaking.
Plan is to strip to bare wood and start again during the winter so I have a really clean hull, but I understand that on 43ft that's going to be some work...

 

[Elessar]

I have Coppercoat on the Windy, and it works, but it's not as effective against fouling as eroding antifoul, and contrary to popular opinion I don't think it saves you any time or money.

Coppercoat is ten times as expensive to buy as eroding antifoul (to apply five coats as reccomended), and takes about five times as long to apply. Each year you really have to lift the boat and sand down the coppercoat, which is actually more work than antifouling it (rollering with paint takes less elbow grease than sanding, ask any decorator).

So you spend in year 1 what you would spend on eroding anti foul in 10 years, you have five times the work initially, then a similar amount of work each year, you still have lifting costs, and its less effective than normal antifoul so you lose out in speed/fuel consumption over the year.

The only real advantage, and the reason I did it, is that you can visit Sealift as many times as you like during the season without reducing the effectiveness of the anti-fouling. I wouldn't bother again though.

Nick, you really should read the instructions before putting a product down on a public forum.

You DO NOT need to sand CopperCoat each year.

CopperCoat on a bare hull is 4 coats, normal antifoul is 3 (primer plus 2 coats)

You maths is therefore as wrong as your "facts".

Ordinary antifoul takes a week or 2 to get to full strength and its downhill from there.
CopperCoat takes a few months, and then it stays effective for many years.
Year 1 performance is therefore not as good as year 2, and by sanding you are getting year 1 every year.

Why do you sand it?

 

[Elessar]

Elessar, if you are so certain that it works and that it would work in Mallorca may I suggest you accept the following proposal:

1) You come to Mallorca and install a system on my boat (I will pay all your air fares and hotel expenses etc) and I will lodge double the system cost with a solicitor of your choice.
You will not receive any payment for the system until at least 12 months have passed and will only receive the doubled payment if the system has worked on the props and rudders.

2) All results to be published on the Forum.

3) Aquatom to be able to check the boat and make his comments to any party.

How about it, are you up for the challenge?

PM sent

 

[stelican]

Nick, you really should read the instructions before putting a product down on a public forum.

You DO NOT need to sand CopperCoat each year.

CopperCoat on a bare hull is 4 coats, normal antifoul is 3 (primer plus 2 coats)

You maths is therefore as wrong as your "facts".

Ordinary antifoul takes a week or 2 to get to full strength and its downhill from there.
CopperCoat takes a few months, and then it stays effective for many years.
Year 1 performance is therefore not as good as year 2, and by sanding you are getting year 1 every year.

Why do you sand it?

Is coppercoat compatable with
sterndrives?

 

[Elessar]

Is coppercoat compatable with
sterndrives?

Compatible on a hull next to stern-drives, definitely. As it is an epoxy the copper grains don't touch each other and it is not electrically conductive.

On the sterndrive itself, not recommended as not tested. Having said that you can use CopperCoat on an aluminium boat, you just use an epoxy base coat the same as you do on steel.

I suspect it's not tested on sterndrives because they would sell a tiny bit more product for a lot of expensive testing.

Have I put CopperCoat on sterndrives? Yes. Any problems? Not as yet. But that doesn't constitute a test regime so it's at your risk.