Gwylan
Well-Known Member
Why not have something similar to the French Bloc? Does the necessary for coastal work and a new one comes out every year.
Beats the crap out of Reeds
Beats the crap out of Reeds
UKHO want to drop small craft folio charts
- Thread starter Cantata
- Start date
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Utter tosh (again).
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
Its ok as an almanac, but surely you don't use it for actual chartwork?
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
I dislike it as I like to be able to re-order the charts and or lay them alongside each other on occasion.
Seajet
...
There is nothing tosh about decent seamanship and having a paper chart backup, not relying on one system;
even if you have a couple of plotters and handhelds etc etc like me,
still relying on ships power supply - even with several batteries
and GPS still working not jammed - I know they promised not to do this any more but they do...
It's also actually enjoyable to use paper charts now and again with their wealth of knowledge - often hard paid for in ships and men...
If I take crew or novices on any decent trip of more than a few hours I get them taking hand bearing fixes and looking at depth contours - which is another thing, navigation by depthsounder refererring to chart is another arrow in the navigators' quivver which should not be lost.
Driving around peering at a screen will end in tears.
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
Hear, hear!
Boathook
Well-Known Member
[163233]
...
It'd be great if they were public domain like the US NOAA ones.
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photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
:encouragement:
I thought electronic charts were “an aid to navigation”. And shouldn’t be relied upon????
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I hear what you are saying Andy, and I cant fault the logic. When First Mate and I decided to cruise the coasts of Ireland, the IOM and part of Scotland we purchased all the relevant paper charts.
We covered in excess of 3500 NM's in four seasons.
In practice, we used the plotter loaded with Navionics and the Irish Cruising Club pilot books.
The paper charts remain pristine.
We have on board all relevant charts from the Solent to Lands End.
As a well respected contributor to YM said in a cruising article " Once you know the coast, it is just a matter of keeping the land on the right going West, and on the left going East!
Once you are familiar with the area, it is hard to argue his logic.
We probably have £400.00 pounds plus worth of paper charts on board, many more in store at home.
In practice, since we upgraded to decent Raymarine plotter and Navionics they have not been used.
And, as long as the plotter keeps working, they are unlikely to be used.
It does go against percieved wisdom, but, I believe, it is the reality for most sailors.
alan_d
Well-Known Member
Just press submit.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
As does every child, but with age and experience I learned to type, use email and CAD systems!
The world moves on.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
I have some charts on board. Large scale charts of the Thames Estuary, East and West Channel and a detailed chart of the Isles of Scilly. I use the large charts rarely, usually to gauge (not measure) the course on longer legs.
With sailing boats you will never steer the exact track expected, so you do not need to be highly accurate. My chart plotter should have an chart update, but generally the places I am going to visit have not moved, just a few buoys and sand banks. It does show a position to a fairly high degree of accuracy, far greater than I could plot on any detailed chart. As to sand banks moving I have an echo sounder that is certainly more reliable for depth than any chart.
The last few times I did long trips to the Solent, Isles of Scilly and France, I only put a few way points in for critical places like the Looe Channel or a tricky harbour. I like to sail the boat and use the mark 1 eye ball to check where I am and backed up by the chart plotter.
Being relaxed about navigating is a skill developed with time. I can still remember being asked to race from Harwich to Ostend (about 90 miles) on a Trapper 28. There were 2 co-owners plus myself and another crew - neither of us had been onboard before. I was asked to navigate. There was a compass, but no deviation chart. The charts were at least 5 years out of date. There was no log, but thankfully an echo sounder. The owners were far less experienced than I expected, so ended taking command of the boat and leaving them to steer (it keeps owners happy!). Reading the wind conditions correctly at the start, meant we started without the spinnaker on a dead run. However, the first turning mark was about ¼ of a mile from the starting line with about a 90 degree turn. The pile up of boats at the mark was something to see as they were all dropping their spinnakers. As soon as we rounded we hardened up above the course and then set the spinnaker on a close reach and walked away from the fleet. Everyone else was in chaos. The spinnaker remained up for some hours before the wind changed direction and some of the larger boats had caught up. The boat speed I estimated was checked when we picked up the ridge half way across on the echo sounder. Then all we had to do was keep our eyes peeled for the block of flats close to Ostend harbour. The boat ended up having its best result in its racing career. Who needs all this navigation equipment? Sailors in the past had to sail like this all the time.
No one who has ever sailed with me seems to find it strange the way I navigate, but in todays world too many people want to know where they are all the time. If you have clear water around you and plenty of depth, who cares where they are as you are completely safe. I know where I am starting from and only need accuracy in shallow waters and harbour entrances. Will I miss Small Craft Folio Charts? No. There are plenty of places for local harbour information, in either book form or online.
With sailing boats you will never steer the exact track expected, so you do not need to be highly accurate. My chart plotter should have an chart update, but generally the places I am going to visit have not moved, just a few buoys and sand banks. It does show a position to a fairly high degree of accuracy, far greater than I could plot on any detailed chart. As to sand banks moving I have an echo sounder that is certainly more reliable for depth than any chart.
The last few times I did long trips to the Solent, Isles of Scilly and France, I only put a few way points in for critical places like the Looe Channel or a tricky harbour. I like to sail the boat and use the mark 1 eye ball to check where I am and backed up by the chart plotter.
Being relaxed about navigating is a skill developed with time. I can still remember being asked to race from Harwich to Ostend (about 90 miles) on a Trapper 28. There were 2 co-owners plus myself and another crew - neither of us had been onboard before. I was asked to navigate. There was a compass, but no deviation chart. The charts were at least 5 years out of date. There was no log, but thankfully an echo sounder. The owners were far less experienced than I expected, so ended taking command of the boat and leaving them to steer (it keeps owners happy!). Reading the wind conditions correctly at the start, meant we started without the spinnaker on a dead run. However, the first turning mark was about ¼ of a mile from the starting line with about a 90 degree turn. The pile up of boats at the mark was something to see as they were all dropping their spinnakers. As soon as we rounded we hardened up above the course and then set the spinnaker on a close reach and walked away from the fleet. Everyone else was in chaos. The spinnaker remained up for some hours before the wind changed direction and some of the larger boats had caught up. The boat speed I estimated was checked when we picked up the ridge half way across on the echo sounder. Then all we had to do was keep our eyes peeled for the block of flats close to Ostend harbour. The boat ended up having its best result in its racing career. Who needs all this navigation equipment? Sailors in the past had to sail like this all the time.
No one who has ever sailed with me seems to find it strange the way I navigate, but in todays world too many people want to know where they are all the time. If you have clear water around you and plenty of depth, who cares where they are as you are completely safe. I know where I am starting from and only need accuracy in shallow waters and harbour entrances. Will I miss Small Craft Folio Charts? No. There are plenty of places for local harbour information, in either book form or online.
Seajet
...
" too many people want to know where they are all the time "
- good one, you had me thinking you were serious for a moment !
Still it must be remembered even paper charts with all their fantastic information could be said to have been created by modern people almost as dimwitted as those who rely on electronics; those of us experienced and in tune enough with our boats do as our ancient forefathers did and dowse our way - America was discovered this way by the Vikings, and probably before that by the Welsh - the coracle originated as a scout craft and tender when closing shore.
- good one, you had me thinking you were serious for a moment !
Still it must be remembered even paper charts with all their fantastic information could be said to have been created by modern people almost as dimwitted as those who rely on electronics; those of us experienced and in tune enough with our boats do as our ancient forefathers did and dowse our way - America was discovered this way by the Vikings, and probably before that by the Welsh - the coracle originated as a scout craft and tender when closing shore.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Comprehension difficulties again I see, never mind old boy.
Not sure that this forum is doing your blood pressure much good.
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GHA
Well-Known Member
And the pencil is still there if you want to play and pretend it's the old days again
Plus Ais and grib files don't plot very well on paper..
That said there is still the temptation to stare at the screen a bit too often, same with all the gadgets in the cockpit. Good habit to turn off the tablet now and then when it's not busy, just follow the passage plan and enjoy the view
Seajet
...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
My chart plotter gave up the ghost at the end of last year and although i cruised to the Channel islands etc i did not miss it. I do not have any charting on my phone ( to small to see and to fiddly) or my ipad. Simply not interested.
i generally find folios a pain although i did find the extra detail for w scotland handy. But the channel island set drives me mad swopping sheets back and forth. The dutch canals southern section was handy the first time round but once again it is a nuisance that they do not cover big enough areas per sheet & i end up with them laying all over the bunks.
so, i for one, will not miss the folios, even though they fit my Yeoman. Just a hassle to keep swopping sheets when in rough weather and single handed. I usually end up seasick!!!
all one needs is a decenct sized chart and reeds. That will get one from the east coat round to la Rochelle Ok. I know from experience that It will also get one round Uk, apart from the dodgy bit up the west coast of scotland
i generally find folios a pain although i did find the extra detail for w scotland handy. But the channel island set drives me mad swopping sheets back and forth. The dutch canals southern section was handy the first time round but once again it is a nuisance that they do not cover big enough areas per sheet & i end up with them laying all over the bunks.
so, i for one, will not miss the folios, even though they fit my Yeoman. Just a hassle to keep swopping sheets when in rough weather and single handed. I usually end up seasick!!!
all one needs is a decenct sized chart and reeds. That will get one from the east coat round to la Rochelle Ok. I know from experience that It will also get one round Uk, apart from the dodgy bit up the west coast of scotland
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
I agree completely with every single word of Seajet's post. Have I also got 'comprehension difficulties'?
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
I wonder why these threads so often end up in a squabble?
Surely there is no right or wrong here, just preferences?
For me, the prudent mariner will have the ability to use any navigation tool at their disposal. Not everyone has their own boat with the luxury to have their installation of choice. Indeed quite a few people sail a whole bunch of different boats and get whatever they get (!) to navigate with.
That is reflected in the RYA theory courses by the way.
And the sea gods did indeed send Kindle to ease the burden of long distance sailors everywhere and is the best thing since sliced bread!
Surely there is no right or wrong here, just preferences?
For me, the prudent mariner will have the ability to use any navigation tool at their disposal. Not everyone has their own boat with the luxury to have their installation of choice. Indeed quite a few people sail a whole bunch of different boats and get whatever they get (!) to navigate with.
That is reflected in the RYA theory courses by the way.
And the sea gods did indeed send Kindle to ease the burden of long distance sailors everywhere and is the best thing since sliced bread!