UK flagged yachts returning to the UK/Europe

[Tranona]

If they wanted to they could easily find out. Log books, clearance into other countries, lack of any bills such as mooring in the EU. Plenty of ways of finding out if the owner has also been out of the country.

However as has already been pointed out there does not seem to be a systematic system for checking boats (and people) in and out so there is no reliable way of knowing whether the rules are enforced. As well to know what they are if you are likely to be affected. Asking for advice from official sources is unlikely to get any more than reference to the published rules. See the response from the MCA in the other thread on the subject of crewing.

 

[david36]

How would HMRC know that the boat had been away and has now come back?

As with any tax authority matter in any country, they ask the owner/skipper/occupier. He or she would be aware that an untrue answer is a criminal offence.
Fair winds.

 

[Peroo]

Many thanks to all for this, particularly Jonic, Rivonia and Tranona - it certainly helps and provides further food for thought and investigation

We will have been away for over three years and the boat was built in 1977 so we had/have VAT exemption - not sure what this will mean, but we will follow up with the RYA web site and the HMRC contacts.

Thanks to all for the comments and responses.

Cheers

 

[JumbleDuck]

If they wanted to they could easily find out. Log books, clearance into other countries, lack of any bills such as mooring in the EU. Plenty of ways of finding out if the owner has also been out of the country.

Remind me again what legal duty any of us has to keep such things. It would, I imagine, be easy to prove the owner had been away; much harder to prove that the boat had, in the extremely unlikely event that they cared, or even knew, about it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

As with any tax authority matter in any country, they ask the owner/skipper/occupier. He or she would be aware that an untrue answer is a criminal offence.
Fair winds.

Yes, yes, but why would they ask in the first place? Have many people here, after a three year stay abroad, been asked by HMRC on their return whether they own a boat and what they did with it while away?

 

[Tranona]

Yes, yes, but why would they ask in the first place? Have many people here, after a three year stay abroad, been asked by HMRC on their return whether they own a boat and what they did with it while away?

It is a requirement by law to notify customs when entering the UK waters from outside the EU. This is done by flying the Q flag and requesting clearance. You should phone customs and they may well ask that you stay on board until they clear you.

Suggest you read HMRC VAT Notice No 8, sections 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 for the rules and procedures - which are basically everything I have said above, plus a bit more detail.

Enjoy!

 

[Tranona]

Remind me again what legal duty any of us has to keep such things. It would, I imagine, be easy to prove the owner had been away; much harder to prove that the boat had, in the extremely unlikely event that they cared, or even knew, about it.

No legal requirement at all. Indeed there is no legal requirement to keep the original VAT receipt when you bought the boat new either. However, once you have followed my advice and read the rules, you might see how such documents could be of use to you should HMRC decide that your boat is liable for VAT - and you want to prove otherwise.

Good thing that they seem to have other more pressing demands on their time - but you never know when they might get bored with chasing real criminals!

 

[macd]

We have been in the Caribbean for a while are are returning to the UK next year.

The issue, as others have written, is probably more of a non-issue in practice.

However, did your sojourn in the Caribbean include any of the French possessions such as Martinique? If so, they're part of France, part of the EU: any visit would have started the clock ticking again.

Another anomaly with a yacht such as yours which is "deemed VAT-paid by virtue of age": yes, if it's been out of the EU for three years, VAT is strictly payable on re-entry. However, the 'evidence' suggested by HMRC for such exemption: documents showing age of boat, location on qualifying date, is absolute: if you had it before, you've still got it (barring the ship's dog eating it). No-one is likely to question it.

 

[Peroo]

Ah - indeed you make a good point concerning the French and indeed Dutch islands out here - we have indeed visited these islands on several occasions, so if the clock starts ticking from the last visit we would be in a different position.

I've written to HMRC a swell for guidance, but the French island position is indeed an interesting dimension to consider..........thanks

 

[Tranona]

Ah - indeed you make a good point concerning the French and indeed Dutch islands out here - we have indeed visited these islands on several occasions, so if the clock starts ticking from the last visit we would be in a different position.

I've written to HMRC a swell for guidance, but the French island position is indeed an interesting dimension to consider..........thanks

You need to be careful with the French and Dutch islands as they do not have the same status within the EU. For example Martinique and Guadelope are departments of France, in the Customs union and the the Euro zone, but not in the VAT zone. So not sure that visiting them qualifies for entry into the EU for VAT purposes.

Would be interested to see what response you get from HMRC. Suspect all they will do is refer you to the same references as above and leave it to you to decide what actions are open to you. Unlikely they will give you any advice or opinion other than suggesting you comply with the rules. Not very satisfactory, but I guess they don't like the rules either, given how seemingly difficult they are to enforce!

 

[jonic]

The French Islands etc do not count for VAT purposes but interestingly do count for RCD purposes......go figure.

 

[Peroo]

My head is beginning to throb.............time for a large glass of rum methinks!

 

[Tranona]

The French Islands etc do not count for VAT purposes but interestingly do count for RCD purposes......go figure.

That is because the RCD is an EEA thing. Lots of obscure territories are members of the EEA, but not the EU. Fortunately the OPs boat was built in the EEA so not an issue anyway.

Think he deserves a second glass!

 

[jonic]

Probably deserves a bottle! (Duty free of course)

 

[Tranona]

Probably deserves a bottle! (Duty free of course)

Second thoughts perhaps not - he is in the sunshine and warm and it will be -2c here tonight!

 

[Peroo]

Ooohhh a little harsh n'est pas!

Anyway, on the second glass and bottle is keeping me company for now.......and I'm nicely warm......

 

[Tranona]

Enjoy! Just finished a shot of Bowmore to ward off the cold.

 

[jonic]

I must be doing something wrong...just had a yoghurt

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is a requirement by law to notify customs when entering the UK waters from outside the EU. This is done by flying the Q flag and requesting clearance. You should phone customs and they may well ask that you stay on board until they clear you.

That's not my point. I would like to know if anyone here has ever left the UK to work abroad for a few years, come back and been asked "Do you own a yacht and, if so, what did you do with it while you were away?" Your point - perhaps unintentionally - illustrates how difficult it would be to do by tracking the boat because if you did take it with you you could have gone via any other EU country or countries, so there would be absolutely no legal need to say anything to UK customs unless you went direct.

No legal requirement at all. Indeed there is no legal requirement to keep the original VAT receipt when you bought the boat new either. However, once you have followed my advice and read the rules, you might see how such documents could be of use to you should HMRC decide that your boat is liable for VAT - and you want to prove otherwise.

The original VAT receipt from 1986 which I have on file might help me if they wondered whether VAT had been paid then, but would be absolutely no help at all if any of the many possible VAT-liable events had happened to it since then.

But back to practicalities. On how many occasions have HMRC asked you to prove the VAT status of your boat?

 

[jonic]

I have clients who were tied up in Lymington having lunch (on an ocean capable yacht) after a short trip from Poole.

They were boarded by customs and quized on the yachts VAT status and where they had been.

That was this summer.