UK flagged yachts returning to the UK/Europe

[Tranona]

That's not my point. I would like to know if anyone here has ever left the UK to work abroad for a few years, come back and been asked "Do you own a yacht and, if so, what did you do with it while you were away?" Your point - perhaps unintentionally - illustrates how difficult it would be to do by tracking the boat because if you did take it with you you could have gone via any other EU country or countries, so there would be absolutely no legal need to say anything to UK customs unless you went direct.



The original VAT receipt from 1986 which I have on file might help me if they wondered whether VAT had been paid then, but would be absolutely no help at all if any of the many possible VAT-liable events had happened to it since then.

But back to practicalities. On how many occasions have HMRC asked you to prove the VAT status of your boat?

Please read the rules. It is a legal requirements to report to customs when entering the UK or EU from outside.At that point you could be assessed for VAT liability on your boat if they believe it falls into the category where VAT is payable. You would then have to prove that it is not. There are many situations where this could arise as listed in the rules. The OP, based on the information he has given potentially comes into one of those categories. In this case he intends clearing into the EU through the Azores where he will have to clear both immigration and customs.

Whether individuals comply with the reporting requirements or whether customs rigorously enforce the rules in the UK is another matter but at least the individual concerned should be aware of both the rules and the possible consequences.

There is a simple explanation why you have not been asked for VAT proof, in the same way that very few UK based boat owners are not asked. You are not in a situation where you can commit a VAT offence, nor is your boat likely to have an outstanding VAT liability. HMRC are not stupid and don't waste their time.

On the other hand if you were in a situation where there is a possibility of a liability you are likely to be assessed. Entering the EU from outside with a boat is just one of those situations.

So don't judge what might happen to others based on your own experience if their circumstances are different from yours.

FWIIW I take great care over the documents for my boat, particularly the VAT documents because I bought it through a scheme that substantially reduced the tax and it was paid in Greece, although the boat is in the UK. Without that documentation I could not have moved my boat from Spain to the UK by road. Different circumstances, different experiences.

 

[Peroo]

Having posed the question I am now aware, I have been educated and I thank the contributors to this thread for that - I will at least be prepared when we return, something I had originally overlooked, and indeed maybe some other cruisers thinking of leaving the warm, wet, barmy ( ) Caribbean may have as well. More research needed but I know what I need to do - I think there may be a few cruisers out there who may not be aware of what might be in store for them however.

I am now going to finish the bottle of rum..............

 

[jonic]

Told you it was a bottle.....

 

[Peroo]

Black Label - from the Angostura/Fernandes folks - mmmmmm........

 

[Peroo]

Folks,
A response from HMRC........

Andrew,

I can answer your first question without hesitation. Yes, if a VAT paid vessel has not changed hands outside of the EU it can be brought back into the UK under the RGR relief scheme. The 3 year limit is quite flexible and each application for RGR outside of the 3 year period will be treated on its own merits.

For a vessel to qualify for RGR it must be tax paid before leaving the EU, I will have to seek clarification on how this works for VAT exempt vessels.

........[ there are some attachments here but not sure how to make them visible - Peroo]

My understanding is that there is no tax exemption for vessels of a certain age; I will research this as well. I know that many vessels have not paid VAT as they are pre 1973 and that is ok until a chargeable event occurs i.e. the vessel changing hands outside of the EU. How this works with vessels that have not changed hands I will need to clarify and email again shortly.



Kind regards

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this broadly reflects some of the views noted earlier in the thread - I will update further when I get the next e-mail

?How do I make the attachments available to the forum?

Cheers

 

[Tranona]

The terminology is sloppy. There is a big distinction between "tax exempt" and what applies to your boat which is "deemed tax paid" - by virtue of age and being in the UK in 1992. It gets this status under the transition arrangements as it was 8 years old at the date all this started ie 1992. clearly it helps if you have the documentary proof of this - suggestions on what to look for on the RYA site.

However, the key thing you have is the "flexibility" comment which suggests (as others might have experienced) they do not enforce the rules exactly. You just need to find out how you take advantage of the flexibility!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Please read the rules. It is a legal requirements to report to customs when entering the UK or EU from outside........

It's worth bearing in mind that if you've checked out of a country, and then fail to check in, it will be detected the next time you check out! And if you are flying anywhere, checking in/out isn't optional.

Something like that once happened to me - I (quite accidentally - I forget the exact circumstances) didn't correctly check out of the USA once. Next time I visited the USA, it was detected and I was given a ticking off - fortunately this was long before 9/11, so a ticking off and a warning was all I got! It was before the Visa waiver scheme, I think. These days, I think I'd have had an uncomfortable time before being allowed to proceed.

Another related instance - again many years ago - was when I went to Australia. I hadn't realized that I would need a Visa for Australia, but the airline checkout desk said no problem, we'll organize it for you. They had a telephone hotline to deal with that sort of thing, apparently. A bit later, they came to me and said that although they'd been able to get Australia to accept me on the flight, they hadn't been able to get me a visa and I would have to be interviewed before passing passport control in Australia - apparently some combination of my personal details set off an alarm on their "unwanted" list, and they needed to check I was on the level! It all passed off quietly and politely - but the take-home message is that those apparently casual checks on people are much more rigorous than they look, and even small things can trigger a more searching enquiry.

The potential hassle of NOT following the rules, especially in these days of airport security and general paranoia is far too great to make not doing things correctly worth it.

 

[Tranona]

It's worth bearing in mind that if you've checked out of a country, and then fail to check in, it will be detected the next time you check out! And if you are flying anywhere, checking in/out isn't optional.

Not really relevant in this situation as the OP will be arriving in his own boat. Pretty common knowledge that control of entry and exit into UK by sea on a private boat is very poorly policed - hence the government's desire to introduce the e borders scheme. The onus is on the skipper to notify customs on arrival, although there is always a possibility of being stopped in a random check (or for some as the result of intelligence gathered by customs).

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Not really relevant in this situation as the OP will be arriving in his own boat. Pretty common knowledge that control of entry and exit into UK by sea on a private boat is very poorly policed - hence the government's desire to introduce the e borders scheme. The onus is on the skipper to notify customs on arrival, although there is always a possibility of being stopped in a random check (or for some as the result of intelligence gathered by customs).

It is relevant, if they ever expect to fly from the UK, and if they checked out correctly. The point is that the mode of travel doesn't matter - if the database says you're already checked out and you try and pass passport control to check out without having checked in, you can expect to be stopped and questioned about the circumstances. And I guess that most people leaving the country for a significant period would be well advised to check out correctly, if only for tax reasons.

I realize that the policing of border controls at ports is poor and mostly done by voluntary reporting, but some borders - particularly at airports - are very well policed, with nothing voluntary about it. And checking that you don't check out without having checked in (or vice-versa) is a pretty basic function of border controls where they are implemented. It's all on the screen they see when they scan your passport. Remember that airlines pay BIG fines if they allow someone to fly whose credentials aren't in order, so they are an additional layer of checking. So, if you've checked out, I wouldn't want to try flying without having checked in!

As I say, I've had direct experience of this in (fortunately) more relaxed times, with far fewer "Big Brother" databases around (they looked my details up in a big wad of fan-fold paper!). These days, I wouldn't risk it; at the very least I'd expect to spend hours explaining myself to the Borders Agency at an airport, and quite likely being fined for breach of immigration law.

I've had recent dealing with the UKBA on unrelated matters, and they have NO flexibility and NO leeway to use common sense. This cost me well over a thousand pounds in air fares and fees, without there being any question of wrong-doing.

 

[GrahamM376]

I realize that the policing of border controls at ports is poor and mostly done by voluntary reporting, but some borders - particularly at airports - are very well policed, with nothing voluntary about it. And checking that you don't check out without having checked in (or vice-versa) is a pretty basic function of border controls where they are implemented. It's all on the screen they see when they scan your passport. Remember that airlines pay BIG fines if they allow someone to fly whose credentials aren't in order, so they are an additional layer of checking. So, if you've checked out, I wouldn't want to try flying without having checked in!

We've not had any problems with UK Border agency. I've sailed out undeclared and then flown back in and, my wife sometimes flies one way on her Portuguese ID and then the other way on UK passport, never a question at passport control.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Further information, even if it's a year later!

We've not had any problems with UK Border agency. I've sailed out undeclared and then flown back in and, my wife sometimes flies one way on her Portuguese ID and then the other way on UK passport, never a question at passport control.

At the May Bank Holiday weekend, 2014, my wife and I travelled to Germany to meet family. On checking through passport control for our return journey, my wife was stopped at passport control, and there was a lengthy pause. This was occasioned by her, through no fault of her own, not having been checked out of Germany correctly on a previous visit two years previously! So, she showed up as an illegal immigrant (her passport is BNO, so she doesn't have the same freedom of travel in Europe as a British Citizen). Fortunately we were able to show that she entered Germany a couple of days before, and it all passed off with a rather irritating delay.

Of course, my wife's BNO passport does mean that she gets checked a bit more thoroughly than an EU citizen would, but it goes to show that the checks are made and that they do keep records for long periods.

 

[duncan99210]

There are no border controls in place at present on exit from UK. When you go through security at the airport the only person conducting a check on your passport is an airline employee, not Border Force. Controls are only in place for entering the country via airports and ports. Therefore there are no problems on re entering the uK without checking out as there is no process to do this, unless you make yourself known to Border Force on departure from UK for some specific reason such as visa restrictions.