Twistle Rig... 100% or 130%?

[rhumbunctious]

This is a question for those with direct, hands-on experience with twistle rigs. If you don't know what one is, or haven't used one, please just listen and don't post. Thanks.

I'm planning on having a twistle rig made, and am pondering whether I should go for 100% or 130% per side.

I'm also planning to use 4oz Dacron sailcloth, so that when spread out, it has reasonable light wind performance, but when folded double and used as a traditional jib, it has decent strength in higher winds.

Or should I go with 6-8 oz sailcloth and just deal with the extra weight?

Thanks.

 

[michael_w]

Despite your officious tone, I'll post a reply.

If you want to waste your money, go ahead and buy a twistle rig you don't need. The most efficent and cost effective downwind rig for ocean cruising is:

Just run wing and wing as per normal. The difference is rig an inner forestay and set your heavy weather jib. Sheet it hard to leeward. Magically the boat stops rolling quite so much and also stops yawing about too.

You should be able to manage most squalls by just furling the genoa. Gybing is slightly more protracted though.

You pays your money and takes your choice.....

 

[KAL]

This is a question for those with direct, hands-on experience with twistle rigs. If you don't know what one is, or haven't used one, please just listen and don't post. Thanks.

Hang on - this is OUR forum, open to all. Never heard of a Twistle rig, but would love to know. Does that make me an ignorant, inexperienced lesser being?

I think not - and I'll post where I please, thank you.

 

[rhumbunctious]

Sorry if I came off the wrong way. I just wanted to avoid debate over the pros and cons of Twistle Rigs over other alternatives -- reaching out for input from those with first hand experience, who could offer advice and opinions grounded in experience rather than conjecture.

That's all...

But for those who don't know what a Twistle Rig is, it's a pair of identical foresails joined at the luff (or alternatively on a double track furler foil, or hanked on interleaved) which are used with a pair of poles in a special configuration for downwind sailing.

They also can be used folded together as a traditional foresail.

A quick google search will provide lots of links, photos, and videos.

As a (primarily) single handed sailor tending to longer offshore passages, the easy handling and tame behavior of the twistle rig is highly desirable.

I've been using a makeshift variant for awhile, and as I am finally flush enough to be about to order new sails for the boat, and planning on having a "proper" twistle rig foresail made. Hence the desire for experienced input by "those in the know".

But quite right, anyone should be free to post what and as they like. I was just trying to get some timely and specific input (yes, I know, how naiive of me to expect to get such from a public forum ;-)

Cheers.

 

[rogerboy]

well said kal

 

[rhumbunctious]

Hang on - this is OUR forum, open to all. Never heard of a Twistle rig, but would love to know. Does that make me an ignorant, inexperienced lesser being?

I think not - and I'll post where I please, thank you.

To be honest, though, even despite this being a public forum, I see no reason why folks should get offended by someone asking for specific advice from persons with actual experience with a particular thing. To echo your sentiment, it's also not only your forum, and I'll ask whatever I like in whatever manner I like, and if you feel excluded, my apologies, but I guess you'd then feel slighted if someone asked "Is there a doctor in the house?" and you weren't one...

 

[Pete7]

http://www.simetric.co.uk/twizzle_rig/index.htm

The above article was written by Smacksman,

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/unique-twin-jib-rig-29360.html

Pete

 

[Martin_J]

Do you only have one luff groove in your forestay? With two grooves then two normally hoisted genoas would work and you would not have to have a double genoa hoisted when not actually required. Would save on the sail wear/degradation when not actually running..

Note for interested parties - The other important part is that the dual poles are not actually attached to the mast but are joined and effectively 'float'.

 

[rhumbunctious]

Despite your officious tone, I'll post a reply.

If you want to waste your money, go ahead and buy a twistle rig you don't need. The most efficent and cost effective downwind rig for ocean cruising is:

Just run wing and wing as per normal. The difference is rig an inner forestay and set your heavy weather jib. ....

Fine if your rig is designed for that. I've spoken several times over the past few years with other Westerly owners and it's not advised for my boat.

I'm mostly looking for a "sanity check", to validate my own experience using a makeshift twistle rig, as there are use cases which I have not yet encountered and I want to be sure I'm not missing something important.

But I'm already sold on the rig, and it will be complementary to a full suite of traditional foresails (albeit near the end of their lives).

...

You pays your money and takes your choice.....

For sure.

 

[rhumbunctious]

Do you only have one luff groove in your forestay? With two grooves then two normally hoisted genoas would work and you would not have to have a double genoa hoisted when not actually required. Would save on the sail wear/degradation when not actually running..

Note for interested parties - The other important part is that the dual poles are not actually attached to the mast but are joined and effectively 'float'.

I have hank on foresails and a furler designed to work with hank on sails. I won't be changing to a roller furler with foil, by choice. For my current twistle rig setup, I just interleave the hanks of two foresails, but I want a single twin sail with joined luff to (a) reduce unnecessary weight and wear on the forestay, (b) provide a better leading edge, and (c) reduce the vertical space consumed by the foresail(s) when stowed on deck but still hanked on when I want to use another foresail.

I also want slightly lighter sailcloth than the 6oz I now have, but am wanting to confirm that 4oz won't be too light for general use, up to around 20 knots.

The main question is what benefits/drawbacks there are to go to 130% rather than the 100% I've been using.

 

[William_H]

100% versus 130%

Well this is a downwind sail. As wind speed rises there is going to be a lot more pressure from the 2 sails as the difference increases between boat speed and wind speed. (apparent wind).
The boat of course may increase in speed a little with bigger sails but will be stuck with the hull speed as a largely limiting factor. On the other hand with light winds hull speed is not a limiting factor but the reduction of apparent wind is. The boat will always go slower than wind speed by an amount depending on size of sails. But not with much practical advantage having bigger sail.
I would suggest that 100% might be the best choice. (Or even smaller) This will be much less concern when wind pipes up but I don't think will hinder you light wind down wind performance. Obviously if you go too small light wind performance will be poor.
Just remember you will not get much improved speed out of a new twistle sail but may get more convenience (to get it down) and assurance under stronger winds.
PS I am not convinced 2 sails together (doubled up) on one tack will work well one will always take the strain so you won't get double strength. So I would go for individual sails which might indicate better value by having different jibs. One bigger and lighter than the other.
good luck olewill

 

[ccscott49]

I have hank on foresails and a furler designed to work with hank on sails. I won't be changing to a roller furler with foil, by choice. For my current twistle rig setup, I just interleave the hanks of two foresails, but I want a single twin sail with joined luff to (a) reduce unnecessary weight and wear on the forestay, (b) provide a better leading edge, and (c) reduce the vertical space consumed by the foresail(s) when stowed on deck but still hanked on when I want to use another foresail.

I also want slightly lighter sailcloth than the 6oz I now have, but am wanting to confirm that 4oz won't be too light for general use, up to around 20 knots.

The main question is what benefits/drawbacks there are to go to 130% rather than the 100% I've been using.

For your info, what you are describing is a "blaster" sail, with poles, not a twissle rig, the twissle rig uses two sails on two forestays, allowing a gap, to allow the sails to work correctly as seperate wings, reducing roll. Sheet the main in hard to centre it and it will further reduce roll. The blaster works basically as a fore square sail.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

These guys invented it, so they say, and it has been fitted to a lot of Discovery 55's.

Worth talking to them perhaps.

http://www.maidsure.org.uk/

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well I think I understand the motives of the OP and I understand his sentiments. I also think some people can choose to take the huff sometimes which is a bit unnecessary?

However I also have an interest in the Twistle rig as the responses so far don't appreciate how highly it's virtues have been extolled in the past.

For those who say, just go conventional, if they mean main out and genoa poles out, then some appreciation of the chafe on main and rig needs to be taken into account. Day after day wears things through very quickly (if that wasn't a sort of contradiction?)

Storm or small jib on the emergency forestay is certainly an option, but you lose quite a lot of potential sail area and you also lose the advertised advantages of the Twistle rig.

This leads me back to my question to the OP What exactly is it that you are 'having built'? If you've got two poles, the all you need is a device to allow you to clip the poles together with a uphaul and downhaul.

Furthermore, the sail area required might be guesstimated by comparing the areas of the main and the spinnaker with the areas of the two genoas you might use. Then allow for trade wind strengths and remember that you are not racing when using such a rig, so slightly less sail area is not usually a problem.

 

[electrosys]

But for those who don't know what a Twistle Rig is, it's a pair of identical foresails joined at the luff (... or hanked on interleaved) which are used with a pair of poles in a special configuration for downwind sailing.

Some of us have been using that combination of sails when running downwind for long distances shorthanded since we were nippers - but have never called such a set-up a 'Twistle Rig' (who gave it that name, anyway ?).

But since you specify that you only want to hear from those - and only those - who have sailed a 'Twistle Rig (sic)', I won't comment any further.


For some reason, "hoisted by his own petard" is an expression which comes to mind ...

 

[prv]

Some of us have been using that combination of sails when running downwind for long distances shorthanded since we were nippers - but have never called such a set-up a 'Twistle Rig' (who gave it that name, anyway ?).

I believe the difference between a twistle rig and just using two jibs on the same stay (which I too have done) is that the twistle rig has the two poles connected at a universal joint hanging in space (by various lines and guys) in the middle of the foretriangle. If that's what you were doing as a nipper then fair enough, but if not then it's a different thing.

Pete

 

[KAL]

Sorry if I came off the wrong way. I just wanted to avoid debate over the pros and cons of Twistle Rigs over other alternatives -- reaching out for input from those with first hand experience, who could offer advice and opinions grounded in experience rather than conjecture.

That's all...

But for those who don't know what a Twistle Rig is, it's a pair of identical foresails joined at the luff (or alternatively on a double track furler foil, or hanked on interleaved) which are used with a pair of poles in a special configuration for downwind sailing.

They also can be used folded together as a traditional foresail.

A quick google search will provide lots of links, photos, and videos.

As a (primarily) single handed sailor tending to longer offshore passages, the easy handling and tame behavior of the twistle rig is highly desirable.

I've been using a makeshift variant for awhile, and as I am finally flush enough to be about to order new sails for the boat, and planning on having a "proper" twistle rig foresail made. Hence the desire for experienced input by "those in the know".

But quite right, anyone should be free to post what and as they like. I was just trying to get some timely and specific input (yes, I know, how naiive of me to expect to get such from a public forum ;-)

Cheers.

Thanks for the explanation and no, there's been no offence taken at all. Sorry if I came over a bit gruff. It was a bit of a day...

We have a double groove on our forestay which can be used for the sort of thing you're describing, although we don't have an articulated pole. I would be interested to hear if you get it sorted. Good luck.

 

[SHUG]

I have improvised a twistle rig with a No1 and a No2 in twin headsail grooves. I don't think that the sails need to be exactly the same.
I used two spinnaker poles attached to a stainless steel ring with all the necessary string,and it worked well going down the Portugese Trades. I also had a sheeted in mizzen sail to reduce the rolling.
I think that the engineering of a proper link between the poles is crucial to the long-term succcess of the rig. Does anybody have a drawing of a successful link?

PS What is that other rig beginning with L which has a double sail which can be spread when running also be used as a single sail when beating. Is it the Lunberg rig???

PPS Got it!! Its the Ljungstrom Rig...it can be main or jib but its the double jib sail I am referring to...worth a look.

PPPS please don't respond to this post unless you have actually used a Ljungstrom rig.....bad joke!!!

 

[Tiddy Oggy]

Twistle information

John Vigor's book, The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat, has three full pages of information and diagrams of the twistle yard, including the interesting hinge. He sailed a 30-footer from Durban, South Africa, to America using a twistle all the way through the trades.

He credits invention of the twistle to Hugh Barkla, the sailor and marine engineer, who wrote about it first in Yachting World.

 

[macd]

First off, it's a Twizzle rig, although it gets called other things too. 'Twizzle' will work better on a Google search.

The general view is that the Twizzle sails should be of similar weight cloth to a regualar genoa: in the Trades they're your working sail downwind, which we all know must sustain strong forces that tend to creep up on you. 110% is considered the ideal area, but cut high in the clew, rather like a Yankee. It's possible to use two sails in twin foil grooves, but simpler to have the sails on a common luff. In either case, they're usually raised on a single halyard. They work surprisingly well laid one on the other as a conventional foresail if needs be.

As said, the key is the articulated poles, flying on uphaul and downhaul at the hinge, which greatly reduce the tendency for rolling.

Setting them up is quite involved...not your regular sail change. Best used for long hauls. The ability to lose sail almost instantly is divine. The boat steers easily (front-wheel drive).

I used a Twizzle from Spain to here (Antilles) via Canaries and Cape Verdes, and can't speak too highly of it. Incidentally, the rig (sails and poles) is for sale (cos the boat is: otherwise, it's a keeper).