Twin versus fin dilemma

[rex_seadog]

Thanks for the replies to date to my recent Westerly Merlin/Tempest post. I think they illustrate very well our dilemma of twin keel versus fin.
At present we have a twin keel Hunter Delta whose sailing performance, like other twin Hunters, compares reasonably well, I understand, with its fin/lifting counterparts. We currently have a deep water mooring so this is not the issue but what we do appreciate is the ability to nose in and dry out in less accessible (and cheaper) places. With retirement looming this will become more of an issue and we have visions of pottering around some of the more inaccessible locations in the west country and Brittany and perhaps beyond. Hence thoughts of a larger (~30 ft) boat, but do we sacrifice the ability to dry out for improved performance? Getting there is certainly half the fun so we don't want to settle for any old tub.
I know there's also the option of legs but I think I would be nervous drying out on these without having hung around for a tide to survey the bottom. Then there's the storage of substantial legs and the creation of strong attachment points.

With the lifting keel alternative I would want something fairly substantial underneath to dry out on. I know suitable boats exist but am concerned about the added complexity of the lifting/swinging mechanism.
Decisions, decisions! Nearly as difficult as deciding which icon to use!

 

[BigART]

The decison was reasonably easy for us. We wanted to sail in the Channel area (South Coast UK Dover to Scillies/North Coast of France) and wanted to be able to get into smaller harbours, creeks so a bilge keel was a reasonable compromise of speed vs interesting places to visit place the ability to take the ground as required (shaft anodes, shaft seals, etc). However, we now want to go further afield, so have traded up for a larger vessel with a keel which takes some places off the visiting list. The excellent accomodation (for a 28 footer) of the Merlin was a bonus. There are many aspects of her we miss, the low cost/time for anti-fouling for instance.

A lifestyle choice.

 

[Talbot]

Neither as good as LAR keels! (wish I had them)

 

[tyce]

the question is how much sailing ability do you lose, i have a hunter horizon 272, and when i have the rig set up correctly, i cant see much difference between it and other fin keelers of the same ilk, and by the end of the season when all the fins are weeded i scrub my boat then enjoy whizzing past them, have you thought about the hunter horin 30/32 or channel 30

 

[rex_seadog]

Entirely agree about the ability of Hunters. If I thought all twin keelers sailed as well I'd have no dilemma. The problem with the 30/32 foot Hunters is that I've seen nothing on offer at below £45k, £10-15k over our budget.

 

[Robin]

In years gone by after one centreboarder and 3 bilge keelers I went for Fin. Initially the reason for bilge keelers was because I had a drying mooring and deepwater ones were expensive in Poole, a place arguably ideal for shallow draft boats. However I HATED going aground, once off my mooring I wouldn't normally consider parking on the mud except for a very few places like perhaps anchoring on the beach at Bembridge. The final nail in the bilge keel coffin was a trip to the West Country where we were upwind all the way there and again all the way back, in those days engines were much smaller and not really an option though Westerly were starting a trend to bigger ones in Centaurs etc. I vowed my next boat would have a FIN keel and a BIG engine! Well I got the fin but only a small engine, but hey who needs an engine when you can SAIL, in fact the first West Country trip acknowledged the change to a fin keel, because we sailed both ways with the spinnaker up, the wind gods obviously approved.

Nowadays I wouldn't consider anything other than a fin keel. Bilge keels become less realistic anyway as boat size increases with fewer boat choices available and the performance differences are even more marked. We once returned from S Britanny in our last boat a fin keeled Westerly 33 Ketch in company with an identical W33 except it had bilge keels. We sailed several legs upwind and downwind in company and they stayed with us only by running their engine periodically to catch up, the difference in speed was very marked even off the wind (0.5kt maybe) but upwind it was nearer 0.7kt but not pointing as high and making quite a few degrees more leeway as well.

Will you REALLY REALLY use the drying out ability of a bilge keeler? If yes will you want to do it often enough to justify the loss in performance? If so then go the bilge keel route. If you want better performance and especially in either light winds or stronger ones, and want to go farther afield then the real choice IMO is a fin. OK you may not be able to dry out (without legs, not for me either) or anchor so close to the beach but the bigger boat will sit more solidly a bit farther out than a small one close in, the difference how far out is really quite small anyway.

 

[billmacfarlane]

I had twins for years, the last being a Sadler 29. I then then switched to a centreplate, with a Jeanneau and the difference was noticeable. Going to windward was a whole new and much better experience. I now have a fin keel and could never go back to a twin. If you're using your boat for ditch crawling, then twin is best, but what I found was that even with twin keels I very seldom dried out, so I bought a centre plate without legs and never missed the twin. I think you'll need to really think about how often you'll use the drying out advantage that a twin keeler will give you and make a decision accordingly. The best twin keeler I've sailed is the Westerly Fulmar and the best fin keeler I've sailed is of course my own.

 

[BlueMan]

How about a Hunter Channel 27 ? The space down below is very well utilised and prices of reasonably new boats (1998-2002) seem to have dropped like a stone over the last 12-18 months. I looked at a 1999 one in Port Solent last Easter that was asking £39950. By Autumn it was down to asking £35k and would presumably have sold for a bit less than that. It was a very clean boat so I concluded that the market was getting rather soft to say the least. It disappeared from the brokers listings and was last seen ashore so I don't know if it sold or not. Worth a thought.

The Ranger 265s (just slightly older) are very similar below and much cheaper now too.

In fact I loved the 245 which is fantastic down below for its length.

In the end we remortgaged and splashed out on a new Hanse 312 but I still like the packaging of the Hunters. They are very clever and very stiff.

 

[tyce]

although i may be biased as a horizon 272 twin keel owner, im not convinced with the fin being faster than the twin in the westerly argument, there are to many factors involved to compare, i.e. smoothness of bottom, type of prop, ability of skipper etc,etc etc,
i was in a race recently when a moody 34 twin keeler shot past all competition, including sadler 34 fin, various jens, and unfortunately me, ( i was obviously racing for my handicap), the thing with this occasion is the skipper is known as extremely capable ( unless he to had his engine on!) so draw your own conclusions

 

[Mudplugger]

Sorree! got to agree with Robin on this. The difference between a Fin and a B/K W33 is exceeding significant, set the f/k sails up to go to windward and you can comfortably tack thru 70%, The B/K tacks thru mid 80's, if you are lucky! and speed differential at least .5 of a knot.

 

[bluedragon]

I went through this thought process last summer before deciding what yacht to buy. In the Bristol Channel there are two schools of thought a) few marinas and just about all harbours dry at LW, therefore bilge is best b) with the prevailing westerly winds and big tides, to go just about anywhere the yacht needs to sail well to windward, therefore fin. Both points-of-view have their merit. My feeling was to go for a good twin keeler (Hunter for example), but then I decided in the summer to go and look (from the shore) at some of the places I might go. I then got a different picture. Most of the harbours are full of moorings (all taken), nobody actually dries-out on beaches (safety? local regulations? who knows?)...so where would I go...visitors moorings (usually in deep water) or alongside the harbour wall / fishing boats. For the latter, a long fin may take to the ground better than bilge/twin keels, particularly if the bottom slopes away from the wall. Anyway, I ended up with a Halcyon 27 long fin for other reasons. How well will it deal with the realities...well I'll tell you next Autumn!

 

[bob_tyler]

Here is a little story which may help you to decide.

The late, founder, editor of PBO, Denny Desoutter, had a rather tubby, slow, clinker boat. When a friend said that he had had a good, fast sail from Chichester to Yarmouth IOW Denny replied that he had taken quite a bit longer but, as it was a lovely day, he had got a lot more enjoyment out of the trip.

Twin keels will affect performance but will enable you to stop over where fin keelers dare not tread!

IE: Performance or Flexibility - your choice. Nobody else can make your mind up for you on this one.

 

[Robin]

All in the mind......

.....I'm afraid, the comparison of 2 W33s was quite fair, over 4 legs with different wind strengths and directions. You cannot drag around an extra chunk of keel only I think 1ft less draft than the fin anyway and expect to perform as well. Much as I would like to claim superior sailing skill the rosette goes to the fin!

If you really need to dry out (drying mooring say) or want to dry out on a regular basis then go for a twin, I had them for years but for the mooring reason. I have NEVER once since wished for a twin because I couldn't go where I wanted to. Looking at people antifouling between the keels whilst laying in a puddle doesn't look encouraging either, whilst we are doing all of ours standing up!

I think we are one of very few nations that favour twin keels so much, there are very few French/swedish/Dutch/German twins aren't there?

 

[Andy_Hampton]

Re: All in the mind......

There seems to be resurgence of interest in twin keelers in French, with new models from manufacturers like RM (Fora Marine) and Archambault. Apparently they sail superbly and give very little to their fin keel counterparts.

Andy