Twin/bilge keels, what to expect?

Agree with pretty well everything you say Boatmike - particualrly that there has never been the 'perfect boat. I just felt you were giving Bilge Keelers much more of a hammering than they deserve.

Fin keelers rarely take the ground except accidentally. The vast majority of Bilge keelers do most tides - thats why we have them! It stands to reason therefore that for every keel boat that has a keel problem associated with grounding, there will be a dozen Bilge keelers. Either because they have been bumped around too often in a way fins never are in normal use, or because owners have been silly with them and beached them in the wrong place. Any boat repair shop equipped to deal with keel problems will get a dozen (or whatever the figure is) to every one fin keeler.

Like I said, in the 40 years I have owned mostly bilge keelers, I never owned one that showed any weakness at all in the keel/hull joint, including Westerlies! And I will be the first to admit that I have done some pretty silly things over the years by way of bad choices for beaching/grounding them.
 
Well, I have read all the aforegoing posts on this one, and without getting into a discussion / argument about all the pros and cons, I will just say this.

The abilities or foibles of bilge keelers have been well documented both in these posts or elsewhere, so I wont go into them in any depth, I just think that you buy the kind of boat that suits the area that you want to cruise in most of the time.

I live in N. Devon, and my boat is moored on the River Torridge, you will not find one fin keeled boat around here, there is the odd long straight keeler with legs, moored in some of the very sheltered spots. The rest are all drop/swing keelers or (the majority) bilge keelers. There is a lot of bowlocks talked about bilge keelers, mostly by around the cans yellow welly'd Nigels, who have never owned one!

I own a Westerly Nomad, that is 38 years young, there are no signs of stress around the keel mountings, no leaks either, and no, she wont point up as well as a lot of other craft, and she is a bit dissadvantaged down wind in light airs, (but a cruising shute goes a long way in off setting that), but when it gets a bit lumpy, she will out sail most of the lightweight offerings of a similar size built in more more recent years, and she has always got me home.

It's just horses for courses innit? If you need to dry out on your mooring then you buys a drop / swing keeler, or a bilge keeler, if you don't then buy a fin keeler. the only word of caution I would add to that, has already been said I think, and that is, that at least with a bilge keeler you can put her down almost anywhere. with the drop/swing keelers, I think you need to be sure of what's under you, you wouldn't want a sharp lump of mother earth to punch a hole in the bottom of your boat!

Cheers all, Charlie.
 
A lot of people have missed the difference ....

Bilge Keels are not actually same as Twin Keels ..... (by boat builders using the terms differently .....)

Bilge Keels are generally stubby and with little leeway / grip leading to the poor windward performance.

Twin keels were so named as the aspect ratio is much higher and are generally slimmer, taller and more effective nearing that of a single keel.

The general attitude of "twin / bilge keels are poor sailing keels" is actually unfair in many cases. Many new designs have "Twin Keels" - to try and gain single keel performance but with bilge keel ability to stand ground.

So the question is Gunnar ? Which are you actually looking at ... short stubby bilge keels or slim twin keels ?

I am also surprised that you being in Sweden with little or no tide to worry about are looking at a twin / bilge keel boat ... or is it that you intend to cruise into serious tidal waters ?
 
May I add my own experiences to the discussion.
I have owned & sailed twin fin Hunters(the British make) for the last ten years or so.I have now switched to a fin keel Moody.
The twin keel boats sailed well & had no problems when on the putty.
According to Hunters own figures the AVS for their own fin keelers is slightly higher than for the twin keelers.
According to the handicaps published by bryon software fin keelers of the same boat type generally have a lower handicap than the twin keeler of the same model.This is only to be expected as the fins are generally deeper draught than the twins,eg Westerleys & Moodys.
There are not many fins that have the same draught as the twins,although I believe this is the case with the new Hunter Legends(American now built in UK)
There was a test done I think by Sailing Today comparing the fin Legend with the twin & the fin was slightly better performance wise but not a lot.
My early sailing was racing dinghies & in later years bigger boats(up to 45ft) & the fin in my own opinion does go better to windward & tacks quicker.
There are advantages to both types & if you want to dry out or sail in shallow waters then go for a twin.
There is no right answer, any boat is a compromise.
This is of course a personal opinion based on 40 yrs sailing in various boats & others will disagree.I respect their points of view.

PS It looks as if I will have to change my name from Ditchcrawler to something more appropriate like Deep Furrow.
 
it's really a question of "horses for courses."
My current boat a Colvic Countess 28 is bilge or I prefer the term "twin keeled" and is my fourth such craft. Until this year we predominantly sailed in the Bristol C /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gifhannel which due to the tidal range has mostly drying harbours although there are now some marinas and barraged harbours.
The vast majority of sailing craft in this area are therefore Bilge Keeled to be able to take the ground.
Windward performance is reduced, but certainly in an area of drying harbours they co come into their own.
This past season we have kept our boat in south devon and have not only been able to enjoy the superb coastal sailing of that area, but have also because of having shallow draught and bilge keels been able to explore quite far inland up the Rivers Fal,Tamar,Lynher,Salcombe and Dart. whilst some of this could have been done in a deep fin boat, it would have been a constant worry about going aground or missing the tide. So I would say consider where you are likely to be sailing and base your decision on practicality.
 
i have to say matt talks a lot of sense, i have owned and raced (sold it a couple of months ago) a hunter horizon 272, and it brought the silverware home for me.
fantastic boats goes up wind as well as most other modern fins.
only problem i ever had is they are a bit slow downwind but i think that was due mainly to the short forestay the hunters have which result in a small spinnaker
 
Painting between the keels

Sorry Simon,

I have to take umbridge with you there on the antifouling.

I would say the twin keel is a bit more difficult, on the smaller ones at least, you have to lay on your back between the keels to paint the hull and inside of the keels.

Painting a fin keeler between the props is no real problem at all

all IMHO of course
Homa
 
Re: Painting between the keels

I'll agree there. Even on it's trailer my bilge keeler was difficult to anti-foul. Maybe it's because my back isn't up to much, but I found my fin-keeler much easier.
 
If the bilge keel boat Lake Sailor is referring to in his comparison is an 18' Valiant built in the 1970s I am not surprised it would be outperformed. Your average tea chest would go better. I should know I used to have one - a Valiant that is, not a tea chest.

If I recall correctly the Valiant was built by a company that produced plastic baths as its main business and cashed in on the boom in small GRP boats in the 70s. Tells you all you need to know - I didn't find out until I had bought mine.

If we are going to have comparisons lets at least have realistic comparisons.
 
They also built some good sailing boats
[ QUOTE ]

The Invicta 26 was designed by E. G. van de Stadt in 1964, as a GRP Folkboat derivative. For several years the hulls were moulded by Tylers, and fitted out by a variety of well-known boatyards. From 1969 a Mk II version was produced, with a trace more headroom, and the later hulls were moulded by Fi-Craft of Essex,

[/ QUOTE ]
But I did make the point that I was comparing a slug (although a tough little sea boat) with a rather more swift boat.

However I don't see anyone suggesting that the choices available to a second-hand boat buyer are between the equivalent bilge and fin keel variants of a boat.
Usually the bilgekeelers available are of the more sluggish type of boat and the fin-keelers have been chosen by the original owner for their performance.

My point is that the sort of bilge-keeler you will probably end up buying will be of the poor performance type by default, because that's what is generally available. I happen to think that bilge keel boats have a lot going for them from a design and geometry point of view, provided someone actually designs a hull properly. See the earlier link.
 
Re: Twin/bilge keels, what to expect? re:boatmike

Probably an ideal place for them then. As far as Shane Acton is concerned I think it is like saying people have gone over Niagra Falls in a barrel. Very brave, probably quite mad, and I certainly wouldn't!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not quite a comparison! Read Shrimpy by SA.
 
Re: Painting between the keels

[ QUOTE ]
I'll agree there. Even on it's trailer my bilge keeler was difficult to anti-foul. Maybe it's because my back isn't up to much, but I found my fin-keeler much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lash a roller to a long stick so I don't have to crawl between the keels at all.
 
Well , you've had an awful lot of personal opinions, and many of them conflict. Lets try and put a bit of science in the discussion.

Most of the "bilge sails as well as fin" comments have been based on comparison of fin and bilge versions of the same boat. But you need not necessarily do that - your preferred choices might be (say) a Moody 31 bilge and a First cruiser racer of the same length. In fact, the performance difference of bilge keels need not be large like for like (see the portsmouth handicap numbers - maybe 7% difference) , but bilge keels are used on a limited number of pure cruising boats only so if your options include more sporty fin keelers there will be a bigger difference.

This performance difference will vary according to point of sail - a bilge keeler flat on the water is likely to have more drag from its keels that a fin keeler, but again this depends on the boats you are comparing. Probably wouldnt be the case if your fin keeler was a long keel. Going to windward, leeway depends on the depth of keel and its aspect ratio. Bilge keelers suffer from having mainly low aspect ratio keels, but then so do a lot of cruising fin keelers like HRs. And the HR keel would not be vertical like the bilge keelers leeward keel so .....

Regular grounding of a bilge keel boat into soft mud can result in keel looseness, but this is mainly an issue with older designs and cheaper boats - you can design round anything if you have to, though its noteable that new bilge keel boats stop at 38 foot. Its stands to common sense that a cat has less chance of falling over than a bilge keeler, and you cannot casually take to the ground with a bilge. You need to make sure that the ground is flatish and you are not on the edge of an underwater canyon.
 
Good points from Birdseye ..... but one basic missed again ...

There are few of the older style Bilge Keels built now .... and most new buildings are of the higher aspect ratio "Twin (Fin) Keel" variation ..... what is commonly termed Twin Keel.

The two are not the same and have significant performance differences ...... note previous posts about S270 / S290's ... which are not Bilge Keelers in the older sense.

Legends (US type) and other more modern boats are near all Twin Keel high aspect ratio ...... indeed some have ballast / hydronamic bulbs at lower extremes to increase performance etc.

The upshot is - the world of Twin Keels has evolved dramatically such that the UK is not the mainstay of twin keel boaters anymore .... with older style Bilge Keels yes true ...

To say that "cheaper" builds were prone to bilge keel problems with drying out etc. that is unfair to Westerly and others ... such as Moody for example .... The cheapness of build is not actually the problem .... its the method of fixing. Many cheap builds actually had moulded keels as part of the hull .... with more expensive boats - especially those with keel options having bolted on ....

The matter of single verses multiple keel options is one that will rage endlessly .... like which anchor should I have ... this thread also leaves out the Triple Keel, Lifting Keel and Swing-Keel ..... amongst others ....

Me ? I hanker for the Moody Eclipse 43 (Bilge Keel) that was stopped production some years ago ....... that will do me and I'd be happy to go anywhere with that babe !!
 
Re: Twin/bilge keels, what to expect? re:boatmike

I have done. Riviting reading, he certainly had balls, but he's dead now and I am old. There are old sailors and bold sailors but no old bold sailors..... sorry!
 
Fair comment. We agree there is no perfect boat.
I didn't mean to slag off bilge keelers as such. As I said elsewhere I have owned two (Centaur and Berwick) myself and got a lot of fun out of both. They have their place, especially drying out in sheltered harbours with good ground.
I actually bought the Berwick cheap because some twassock had habitually dried out in an exposed sandy bay and the keels waggled like seagull wings and leaked like a sieve. After lifting her, removing both, repairing the hull damage, and re-sealing them she was a fine little boat and took us off to the Scillies where we dried out on beaches all the time. Personally though I would go for a good lift keel like the southerly or a cat (as I have now) rather than a bilge keeler and think it very significant that there are very few bilge keelers built now and very few have ever been built over 36 ft. And if you are just looking for shoal draft and don't want to dry out there are other alternatives like wing keels that do this as well and sail better.
 
Wow! What a thread! Lots to read and consider! Thank you all!

Jus a short reply to those questioning what I´m supposed to do with a bilge keeler in the Baltics.

Me and my wife came back last year from a 18 month "round Europe cruise" (see www.eilean.se, unfortunately only in Swedish) and realized we want to do it again efter some years of 'money-making'
But next time we will be away for a longer time, probably as semi-retired and without kids.
So we are looking for a smaller boat, about 33-34'. We also want to explore more of the European canals, maybe take the Danube route and other interesting inland waters. So we would like to have a boat with 1,4 m or less drought.
We are also fascinated by all the tidal areas you only can cruise if you can take the ground.
So we are considering a new boat and so far we have been thinking of building a Roberts Spray, one of the few sturdy cruising boats where a GRP moulding can be bought for home completion. (Any other suggestions anyone?)
But we are also loking on second hand alternatives, like swing/lift keelers or, now the thought of a bilge keelers.
Sorry, a cat is emotionally unacceptable.
 
[ QUOTE ]
and think it very significant that there are very few bilge keelers built now and very few have ever been built over 36 ft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could that be because the Uk boatbulding industry is building virtually nothing below around 26 - 28 feet anyway - which is probably the upper limit for practical bilge keelers. In the 70s 80s we were spoilt for choice with all the Vivacities, Corribbees, smaller Westerlies like the Pageant, Nomad, Windrush etc, together with Kingfishers, Macwesters, Halcyons, Snapdragons - to name but a few!

Other than 'reproduction gaffers' like the Shrimper, I can think of very few 'pocket cruisers' below 26 ft or so that have remained in production in recent years, and suspect the disappearance of the Bilge Keeler from the market reflects this rather than any disillusionment with the keel form.
 
I think thats certainly true, but you also make a good point that BKs were only ever popular on smaller boats anyway. My point regarding very few ever having been built over 36 ft was echoing what you say too.... No one has ever wanted larger bilge keelers anyway.....
 
Now that you have mentioned canals Gunnar, I would not suggest a cat anyway. Too wide! I would seriously think about a lift keel boat like a Southerly though as you will certainly find many canals in France and elsewhere where even 1.4 metres can be a problem, especially near the banks where a bilge keeler might ground on one keel. Very often, especially meeting a big Peniche or barge on a tight bend the little boat (you) will be forced very near the bank. Under engine you don't really care at all about sailing performance and a lift keeler could have her keel raised much of the time giving you the best of both worlds. When on the open sea with the keel down you will have good all round performance too... Thats the way I would go. Also, in times of drought, many of the canals are a lot shallower than the stated minimum...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top